In the first episode of I'm Obsessed With This, host Bobby Finger invites writer Christine Friar and The Verge features editor Kevin Nguyen to the studio. They dig into Bird Box, Tidying Up with Marie Kondo, Bandersnatch, and the Internet crazes surrounding them. We also have the people behind Bandersnatch here to answer your questions from Twitter. Writer Charlie Brooker and producer Annabelle Jones set the record straight on Frosties vs Sugar Puffs, Stefan, and more.
In the first episode of I'm Obsessed With This, host Bobby Finger invites writer Christine Friar and The Verge features editor Kevin Nguyen to the studio. They dig into Bird Box, Tidying Up with Marie Kondo, Bandersnatch, and the Internet crazes surrounding them. We also have the people behind Bandersnatch here to answer your questions from Twitter. Writer Charlie Brooker and producer Annabelle Jones set the record straight on Frosties vs Sugar Puffs, Stefan, and more.
[Music]
Bobby: Welcome to I'm Obsessed With This, a Netflix podcast about the films and TV series everyone seems to be watching right now, like Bird Box, Tidying Up with Marie Kondo, and Black Mirror: Bandersnatch, among other things. I am your host, Bobby Finger, and I'm joined today on this blistering cold day in Brooklyn by Christine Friar, a writer from New York, and Kevin Nguyen, Features Editor of The Verge, formerly of GQ. Later, we'll hear from Charlie Brooker, the writer of Bandersnatch, and Annabel Jones, the producer of Bandersnatch. But for now, I'm with Christine and Kevin. So, let's meet them. Hello, Christine and Kevin.
Christine: Hi, Bobby.
Bobby: How are you doing today?
Kevin: Hi, Bobby.
Christine: Feeling great, excited to be here.
Bobby: How's your java?
Christine: Oh, it's fresh. It's piping hot.
Bobby: I should have gotten two. I'm out of java, and now, I wish I had a second one.
Christine: Bobby provided us with java, and now, he's fresh out.
Bobby: I hate being out of java. So, what are you both doing here? Why are you here?
Christine: Well, I guess you could say I'm a real streaming head, if I had to think of what qualified me to be here. It's probably my passion for streaming services like Netflix.
Bobby: Like Netflix. What about you, Kevin?
Kevin: We're here to talk about all the memes around Alfonso Cuarón's Roma, right?
Bobby: Yes. What was your favorite Roma meme?
Kevin: I did—There was, like, a week where, like, every black and white photo I saw on Instagram, I wanted to reply Roma (2018), so.
Bobby: I mean, what a dreary, like, what a dreary collection of memes that would be. Like, anytime something terrible happens, it would be just, like, a picture of Cleo, like, meme.
Kevin: I'm afraid of the ocean now. Like, it's awful.
Christine: Just, like, pictures of dog poop on the street.
Kevin: Aw. What was the dog's name, Borras?
Christine: I don't—
Kevin: Oh, you haven't seen it?
Christine: I believe that—I saw it with you.
Kevin: Oh, with you? Oh, I was, like, that's why I was confused.
Bobby: We saw it at the IFC Center. So, today, we're not talking about Roma. We could, if we wanted to.
Christine: We just did.
Bobby: We just did. We're going to talk about Bird Box, Marie Kondo, and Bandersnatch, mostly because they were the only things anyone seemed to be talking about over the holidays, probably because they were shut in with their friends and family for a long period of time. The weather wasn't great, and they were just the things that they decided to watch on Netflix. And, everyone could agree on them because, one, it's a Sandra Bullock movie that's new and exciting. Two, it's like a calming woman telling you, like, how to improve your life by cleaning up, and, three, it's Black Mirror, and people are obsessed with, like, a new, exciting thriller from this show that we've come to rely on as, like, exciting and good.
Kevin: Yeah. I didn't, like, go home for the holidays, but I'm just trying to imagine convincing my parents that we should watch Roma. Like, that, just, conversation would never—So, what's it about? Who's in it? And, it's like, "Well, it's just, it's going to be beautiful. It's going to be an emotional experience." And then, you'd just realize halfway through it's, like, "Oh, I don't want to have that with you guys."
Bobby: I want this to be a prouder moment.
Kevin: Bandersnatch time, yeah.
Bobby: Let's put our phones in the other room, and, the moment you say that to someone, they're like, "No. Let's do something else."
Kevin: Yeah. Where did it happen where, like, your parents are more attached to their phone than you are? Like, I feel that switch flip, like, five years ago.
Bobby: Oh, yeah. I don't think I could watch Roma with my parents because the phone rings in their house constantly.
Kevin: Like a landline, or—
Bobby: The landline, and it rings. And, I was there, and I had forgotten how often the phone rings. And, I was texting my sister while I was there. It was, like, every 15 minutes the phone rings, and they don't answer it. They're like, "Ugh." Like, they'll look at the caller ID. They'll look at the caller ID and sigh and say, "I don't know why we have this thing. We should just use our cell phones. It's all spam." And, it's like, "Well then, get rid of the phone call." And, they're like, "Well, we have, you know, this family and this family. It's the only number they know, and if something happens." And, it's like this is crazy.
Kevin: I feel like we're in Black Mirror.
Bobby: That's what Roma would be. It would be like Cleo experiencing something very profound, and then, the phone would ring. And then, my parents would say, "Don't get it. Don't get it." So, boy, girl, we're going to talk about Bird Box right now. Okay? What came—
Kevin: It's going to be rough.
Bobby: It's going to be rough. Never take your blindfold off. Never move away from the mic. We're going to talk about Bird Box.
Christine: If you don't listen to me, I will hurt you.
Kevin: How is this Sandra Bullock movie not called The Blind Side?
Christine: Of any of her works—
Bobby: I mean, it would be—
Christine: …where it'd be called the The Blind Side.
Bobby: They were looking through her filmography, and they were like, "Damn it." What else happens? Were either of you surprised, because I certainly was, that there is, in fact, a box of birds in Bird Box, and not even in Bird Box? In the first few minutes of Bird Box, you're like, "Okay. This is good." Were you expecting an actual bird box? I feel like people, like, half of people, sort of, expected it to be a metaphor for something, or they were waiting for, like, the end to be a reveal that, "Ah, this is what—Like, we're the bird box."
Christine: I think—
Bobby: We are the birds in the box. I get it now. I understand Bird Box. Was this a surprise to you?
Christine: Yeah. It was a surprise that it was literally birds in a box for me because I knew that it was based off of a novel going into it, and usually, film adaptations of novels have to incorporate a titular element that makes no sense within, like, the format of cinema. So, I thought it was going to be, like, a random Act Three throwaway line where, like—
Bobby: We're just in a bird box.
Christine: …Trevante is like, "It makes you think how we're all just birds in a box." Like, you know what I mean? Like, I thought—
Kevin: He'd probably sell that line.
Bobby: Oh, he could do it. He or, I think, like, John Malkovich could have sold that line.
Kevin: Yeah.
Christine: So, when it was birds in a box, I was impressed.
Bobby: Did you know it was about birds in a box?
Kevin: I did not. And, it's also, it's strange when a movie is named, a horror movie specifically, is named after, like, not the thing that's scary. Like, the birds in the box are, like, the good thing. They're, like, the solution, or, like, they're the helping thing, the helping element in the movie. But, I guess I don't know what you would call it otherwise. Like, "Don't open your eyes, or you'll go crazy and kill yourself."
Bobby: Yeah.
Kevin: Actually, that's a great title with Marie Kondo.
Christine: There's a lot of tension in that title.
Bobby: Yeah. That seems like the sort of title that would be, like, eloquent in a language other than English, but then, when translated to English, it's like, "Don't open your eyes, or the monsters will come and get you and make you kill yourself." It's like, well, in another country, it sounds really nice. So, you, it took you a while to watch Bird Box.
Kevin: Yeah.
Bobby: So, you had been, you know, really overwhelmed by all the memes for probably weeks before you watched it.
Kevin: Yeah. And actually, I kept hearing about—I don't know. I just kept hearing about the memes, and, like, they all seemed, kind of—I just felt, like, completely dissociated from them, and like, well, you know I've watched Bandersnatch. I've watched Marie Kondo. It's like I can check out of this one for a little bit. And then, I watched Bird Box, like, earlier this week, and I was, kind of, pleasantly surprised how much I liked it.
Bobby: Did the memes make you expect one thing, and did you get another thing? Like—
Kevin: You know, the interesting thing is I actually, for some reason, I just thought the reason Bird Box was so popular was because of how scary it was. So, I was actually expecting a much scarier movie. So, that's one that made my expectations a little different, but the memes are so all over the place for Bird Box. Like, it's not one image really, you know? It's not one image macro over and over. It's just, like, a bunch of different loose concepts. So, going in, I think I thought I knew what I was getting into, and then, it just ended up being, like, kind of, a more straightforward movie. And, that was, kind of, surprising.
Bobby: You are a, you're like—Would it be fair to call you a tech guy or tech adjacent guy?
Kevin: Oh, no. I'm tech adjacent now. That's true.
Bobby: …based solely on your employment at The Verge.
Kevin: Yeah. I think that's fair. Yeah.
Bobby: You are hyper aware of social media and, like, the memes. What were, like, the ones, the standouts to you when you saw them? Like, were you satisfied by this meme, or did you think it was, kind of, annoying?
Kevin: I just, like—It's weird because I haven't really revisited it, the meme since I saw the movie, but I feel like it's so strange because the memes are so separate from the movie themselves. Like, I just think the entire setup for the memes were just, like, there's a blindfold.
Bobby: Yeah. A blindfold over Shrek.
Kevin: Yeah.
Bobby: A blindfold over, like, a drag race performer.
Christine: The thing that really seems to have, like, caught the meme-averse is imagination is not what I was expecting. Like, they just love people not realizing obvious things. Like, that's the joke right now, like taking stills of, like, either people being blindfolded or having their eyes held open and being, like, "Here's a thing we can all agree upon. Yes?"
Kevin: I'm not sure anyone that, like, made the memes saw Bird Box—
Christine: Right.
Kevin: …which is, kind of, funny.
Bobby: You could participate in the meme having no idea what the movie is about, which is, kind of, a good thing.
Christine: As long as you're familiar with, like, realizing stuff, you can, like, grasp the memes.
Bobby: And the concept of seeing and not seeing.
Kevin: Yeah.
Bobby: Like, the Bird Box challenge was probably created by someone who had never seen the movie—
Kevin: Yes.
Bobby: …or, like, it would be easy to believe that it was not, which is scary. Did either of you participate in the Bird Box challenge? Were your younger family members into that?
Christine: No, thank God.
Bobby: It seems like it skewed young.
Christine: I probably would have had to talk them out of that, any of my family members, at the holidays just trying the Bird Box challenge.
Bobby: No one should be doing the Bird Box challenge, by the way. Do I have to say that as a PSA?
Kevin: Yeah, probably. I watched maybe half of a Logan Paul video where he did the Bird Box challenge, and I was like, "How does this guy get away with making 20minute videos? It was just, like, truly, truly aggravating.
Bobby: He's astounding. Like, it's wild.
Kevin: Astounding is the right word.
Bobby: Yeah.
Kevin: Yeah.
Bobby: He and his brother, I cannot believe. I cannot believe either of them. So, the Bird Box challenge, for those of you listening who have been in, I don't know, a cave, the Bird Box challenge is when you put a blindfold on and you go out in the world and see how long you can last in the world with this blindfold on. And then, your friend films you with the hopes of seeing you fall or break something or get into trouble, and Netflix does not condone the Bird Box challenge.
Kevin: Or those friends.
Bobby: Or those friends. We think it's absolutely terrible. So, anything else we want to say about Bird Box? We liked Bird Box.
Christine: I liked Bird Box, and, if you're a meme-maker out there and are interested in the Bird Box challenge, might I, like, suggest you pivot your attention to the incredibly fruitful field of driving a car using only the GPS and not your eyes. That's the craziest part of that movie, and nobody touches it.
Bobby: It is a wild scene. It's crazy.
Christine: They drive to the grocery store using just the GPS, like the built-in GPS. Like, the Lexus provider or whatever car brand provided the vehicle for the film, like GM's native GPS is up-to-date enough that they can, like, within feet—
Bobby: Oh, yeah.
Christine: …of a turn, drive to the grocery store, and also, I think a really funny video idea would be—
Bobby: Take note, content creator, please.
Christine: Yeah. Like, put a camera outside the car and show me what the fuck they're crunching over.
Kevin: Yeah.
Christine: I want to see them drive really slow over, like, a Gatorade bottle and think that it's a dead body and be like, "Oh", and it's just crunching.
Bobby: Like, just like a gated suburban neighborhood. Like, make sure all of the kids are inside, or must make—
Christine: It's like a—
Bobby: Yeah.
Christine: …like a recycling bin or something.
Bobby: Yeah.
Kevin: It's great to watch half of this Logan Paul video.
Bobby: One of the other memes was the, was, what's his name, Tom Hollander, opening the eyes of Jacki Weaver and telling her to see things. I think that was a pretty successful one. We didn't talk about that.
Kevin: Yeah.
Bobby: So, it's blindfolds. It's pulling open the eyes of Jacki Weaver, who is, again, in everything. Is she Widows?
Christine: Yes.
Bobby: She's in Widows. She's Elizabeth—
Christine: Who is she in Widows?
Bobby: …she's Elizabeth Debicki's mom in Widows.
Kevin: Yes. You're right.
Bobby: That's Jacki Weaver, but I think we're done talking about Bird Box because that's a lot of Bird Box.
Christine: Yeah.
Bobby: And, I want to get out of this car. I want to talk about Marie Kondo now.
Kevin: Yes.
Christine: Great.
Bobby: I feel like we need Marie Kondo to come in here and bless this space.
Christine: We need to invite her into this space.
Bobby: Did you—
Kevin: She's like a nymph.
Bobby: She's, so, I love how, like, how much everyone loves everyone on that show. Like, it comes in, and it's like, "Ah!" And, everyone's like, "Ah!" Marie Kondo gasps. The guests gasp. The translator gasps. Everyone loves her.
Kevin: I'm curious how much you think Marie Kondo likes her guests because, like, my favorite thing is she goes into hug people and she, like, kind of, does this, like, tap thing with her arms. And, she clearly doesn't want to hug them.
Bobby: She was told this is, like, "Marie, you're going to go into these houses. You're going to hug everyone."
Christine: Americans are really affectionate, don't think it's weird. They're going to hug you. They're going to scream. I love that every time she comes back to people's house, it's like, "Ah!" Like, it is just one voice screaming, like, from the kitchen down the hall into the front hallway, and you're like, "Oh. Here she comes."
Kevin: She's back. She's back.
Christine: We're going to fold some shirts.
Bobby: I hope they don't get mad at me. I hope Marie doesn't get mad at me. Marie Kondo is a, I guess, lifestyle expert, author, bestselling author. She wrote the Life-Changing Magic of Tidying Up, published a few years ago. She's only 34 also. Until this show, I didn't know what she looked like, and I was like, "You're that young?" I featured Marie Kondo as, like, an elder, wise, like, grandmother. So, Marie Kondo, Tidying up with Marie Kondo, is what I recently, of all of these, is my most recent addition to my watch list. I'm not all done with it. I think I've watched five episodes, which—
Kevin: Yeah. I'm about that many in.
Bobby: …which leaves—But, I've been, like, kind of, picking and choosing. I'm not watching them in order, which I don't really know why.
Christine: There's not, like, a narrative arch to the season.
Bobby: Yeah.
Christine: I mean, you're free to skip around.
Bobby: I watched the first one. I watched, like, the second one, and then, I watched, like, five, six, seven. So, I got—Because, I was like, "I've got to find the gay episode." I'm always looking for—
Kevin: It's, what, number six?
Christine: Yeah.
Bobby: I think that's six, which I really liked.
Christine: The writers.
Bobby: The writers.
Christine: Their house needed some help, for sure.
Bobby: I love when she comes in and she's just like, "This is great." My favorite—Marie Kondo is not like—
Christine: Gross.
Bobby: …the meaniest thing in the world, but I do love—I'm so excited because I love mess.
Christine: Yeah.
Bobby: I've been seeing that a lot, which is great, which is also one of the saddest episodes. That's from the one with the widow.
Kevin: The widow one, I think that was my favorite.
Bobby: Yeah. That one's good.
Christine: She handles way well. Like, I tried really hard to imagine what I would be like after a 40-year marriage and, like, losing my partner to a debilitating illness that I nursed them through, and I would, like, be in horrible shape.
Bobby: Yeah.
Christine: Like, I just wouldn't be a—
Bobby: She was always, like—
Christine: …pleasant. She was dressed.
Bobby: …being like—She was dressed.
Christine: Her hair was done. Her house was clean. She was like, "There's not a dish in the sink, and we're going to throw away my husband's shit." I'd be like, "Ah."
Kevin: Yeah. Well, actually, tell—Like, the show is pretty sad in weird ways.
Christine: Yeah.
Kevin: And, I wonder how self-aware you guys thing this show is or Marie is of, like, what's happening because, like, that episode in particular, like, when they do the before and after, like, before, it's like, actually, like, a pretty organized closet.
Bobby: Yeah.
Kevin: And then after, it's empty.
Christine: Empty.
Bobby: Yeah.
Christine: Yeah. It's empty.
Kevin: That man is gone, you know?
Christine: Yeah.
Bobby: It's—Yeah. It's really sad, and I think a lot of the show's sadness comes from the editing. And, I would say I don't think you go into something like this wanting to be sad on camera. I think you're like, number one, I want to be on television. Number two, I want to clean up my house, and I don't really think you go into it expecting to be pitied. It's been like—Even the family that moved from, like, the bigger house in the Midwest to—where did they move—to LA area—
Kevin: Yeah.
Bobby: …and where it's like, they're like, yeah, the Fantastic Four. They're, like, so exciting and, like, fun to watch and, like, in a good mood, but there's also something sad about, like, they had to leave this place where they really established, like, a life and, like, a space together to the smaller spot. And, it's like their kids are miserable, but not saying anything because the kids love the parents. And, like, I don't think they go into it expecting that sort of, like, pathos.
Kevin: Yeah. It's like the messiness ends up being, like, a symptom of something larger, and it's usually, you know, defined generals in the household that are, like, a little too rigid and old-fashioned or, you know, it's, like, the accumulation of stuff in late capitalism. Like, there's always, like, a weird, bigger, philosophical thing going on with the family or the couple that, like, comes out at the end. And, what's kind of funny is, like, I feel like Marie is not, like, telling them that. Like—
Bobby: Yeah.
Kevin: …in Queer Eye, I think they would point it out—
Bobby: Right.
Kevin: …a little more obviously, but it's kind of funny watching these couples figure it out for themselves. I think it's especially true for the first episode.
Bobby: Oh, yeah. The first episode. Belief sometimes for them to have that sort of self-realization, you need someone who is not going to be, like, almost overwhelmingly nonjudgmental.
Kevin: Yeah.
Bobby: Right?
Kevin: So, just judging their stuff.
Christine: Well, also, like, the real calm of the show for me comes from the fact that she's completely disinterested in engaging and the emotional relationship that people have to their stuff. She's treating it as though we have no psychological relationship to our surrounding, like, to the environment that we cultivate, and she's just going like, "Okay." Like, it reminds me a lot of in Pocahontas when—
Bobby: Go on.
Christine: …she is singing "Colors of the Wind" and she, like, kneels. And, she goes, "I know every rock and tree and creature has a life, has a spirit, has a name." And, she touches the rock and touches the tree, and the rock lights up and the tree lights up. And, they're like, "She acknowledged me." Like, Marie is very connected to the intrinsic power of what you surround yourself with, and she just, kind of, like, hammers away at that one tenet over and over again—
Bobby: Yeah.
Christine: …and doesn't let people talk about themselves.
Bobby: Yeah.
Christine: She's, like, completely without—She forces people—
Bobby: Laser focus.
Christine: …to not focus on their egos in a way that is fantastic because everybody's in a moment of transition or, like, in a moment of having to edit their lifestyle or, like, not succeed at something that they're saying is really important to them. Like, the couple that's like, "We're married, but we don't feel married. We feel like we live in a dorm."
Bobby: Yeah.
Christine: Or, like, the family that relocated, and they're like, "We're in a more expensive city now, and we're not giving our kids the life that we thought we were going to give our kids."
Bobby: Yeah.
Christine: Like, everybody is grappling with stuff that wouldn't fit into 30 minutes anyway.
Bobby: Yeah.
Christine: And so, like, the art, the fact that you're even able to observe that about those people comes from the fact that she doesn't mention it at all.
Bobby: Yeah.
Christine: She's only talking to them about socks.
Bobby: Yeah. And, it makes me think of the, like, interview tactic, like, silence as an interview tactic where it's, like, where you let them do all the work by, like, not saying anything.
Christine: And just go, "Oh."
Bobby: Yeah. She's not saying anything about their personal drama, and, if anything, like, she's, like, avoiding it too in, like, almost, like, annoying extent. Where she's like, can witness, like, a couple bickering, and she's like, "Let's go into your sock drawer." Like—
Christine: So, anyway, when we hold hands—
Kevin: Fold this shit sideways.
Bobby: Yeah.
Christine: Yeah.
Bobby: What is the—Have you started Kondo-ing your life, Kevin?
Kevin: I feel like that's an obvious question. I read the book a few years ago, and so, I think the only thing I really took from it was, like, I started folding my sweaters sideways. And, I have started doing that again, but, it actually, it's a great, it's just great to be, like, really cognizant. I feel like I'm actually, like, a pretty tidy person already, but, like, the idea of just everything having a resting place in your apartment I think is an important reminder. And, I feel like I've gotten a little tidier since I've watched the show. Yeah.
Bobby: Are you doing this too, Christine? Because, I did my dresser. That's the number one. That's the first thing I did.
Christine: I mean, congratulations on starting and finishing.
Bobby: Yeah.
Christine: I think that's really where I'm very aware of, like, the tenets that make her strategy healthy and good, but the problem that I face as, like, a worker is that I want to do something in one sitting to completion perfectly the first time and then, like, not think about it ever again.
Bobby: Yeah. It's a lifestyle.
Kevin: That's why there are steps.
Bobby: Yeah.
Christine: Yeah. Steps are hard.
Bobby: It's a lifestyle change. Like, it's not one and done. It's like you have to do this all the time.
Christine: This is a practice of, like—
Bobby: Yeah.
Christine: …considering your things. But so, watching the show, I was incredibly inspired and, like, took every piece of clothing that I owned, put it on my bed, as she recommends, and, like, looked at it all together. So, it's, like, my dresser and my closet in one pile, and I got as far as separating things into, like, keep, maybe, donate. And now, I just have three piles of clothes in my bedroom, and it's, like, five days later. So, TBD.
Bobby: I have a bag of donate just sitting next to my laundry basket. So, it's, like, laundry basket clothes, bag of donate clothes, but then, like, the rest of the bedroom looks good.
Christine: Yeah.
Bobby: I just have these, like, piles.
Christine: And, I'm sure your dresser, like, you folded everything visually the way Marie wants?
Bobby: And, I'm still folding. Like, I have done a load of laundry since, and I refolded some t-shirts and put them back into the thing. But, we were talking about this before starting the episode. I do find, when you take something out, like, when you take a folded piece of clothing out of its spot, sometimes, it does, it gets less—
Christine: It, like, disrupts—
Bobby: …structurally sound.
Kevin: Yeah.
Bobby: So, that's, I'm, sort of, trying to figure out how to do that, and I think maybe the answer is make it even tighter in there.
Kevin: Yeah. That's the other funny thing. Like, when you fold things sideways, like, you have to actually pack it to maximum—
Bobby: Yeah.
Kevin: …like, drawer space, in a weird way, or else—
Bobby: Yeah.
Christine: It has to be, like, a full column. You can't have, like, a half column of t-shirts because then they'll fall over.
Bobby: Yeah.
Kevin: Yeah.
Bobby: So, I actually didn't get rid of a couple t-shirts, weirdly, because I needed it to stay—
Christine: Your rectangle.
Bobby: Yeah. I needed it to be a rectangle. I love folding my pants though. I love doing that. Did it make you want to visit The Container Store? I heard it started spiking visits to The Container Store, anecdotally. People were noticing this.
Christine: It didn't make me want to, but I understand the impulse. It made me, it—Like, I think more in the spirit of her work would be recycling boxes—
Bobby: Yeah.
Christine: …that are already in my house. Like, I was thinking a lot about how I could repurpose things that are just, kind of, sitting around because I think they look cute and actually use them to do functional things in my house.
Kevin: I just went to The Muji Store and bought little containers for my office, so.
Bobby: That's great.
Kevin: For listeners, if you don't know, The Muji Store is basically pretentious, The Container Store.
Bobby: Oh, yeah. Now, we are going to move on and talk about Bandersnatch.
Christine: Great.
Bobby: Another viral moment, a surprise drop. There was a trailer released one day. Bandersnatch came out the next day. It's a film. It's not a game.
Christine: Don't get it twisted.
Bobby: Don't get it twisted. Did we all watch Bandersnatch?
Christine: Yes.
Kevin: Yes.
Bobby: We all watched different versions of Bandersnatch, I'm sure, because no two people are alike. What was your first failure, your first "Wrong choice, mate."? What is the line? I already forgot.
Kevin: Yeah. It's something like—
Bobby: "Wrong path, mate."
Kevin: Yeah.
Bobby: What was your first wrong path?
Kevin: I think it's one that it led you down deliberately at the beginning to show that you could loop again, but, like, I think, when you go into the game studio—
Bobby: To accept the job.
Kevin: Accept the job, yeah. And, I did that. It just seems like it's leading you that way, and then, it cuts immediately to that ending where they review the game. And, it's, like, zero stars or whatever, and then, you loop back, which I thought was very clever.
Bobby: Yeah.
Kevin: Because, I was watching another partner, and I was like, "We should accept, right?" She was like, "That seems obvious." I was like, "Nah." And then, of course, she was right. I think it does try, especially early on, to lead you down very obvious and specific things to teach you how to play.
Bobby: Yeah. I was thinking about—There was a, it was actually a review of Succession, and TV critic Willa Paskin at Slate wrote something that I think about a lot when I start a new TV show. And, it's, "TV shows teach you how to watch them." And, she was like, "Succession has a really strong learning curve, a high learning curve, because it, like, seems like one genre at the beginning, and it isn't. And so, you, kind of, have to revisit the original ones with the new idea of what the show actually is." But, Bandersnatch takes that to a new level because it literally teaches you how to watch it at the beginning. It's like, "Are you going to choose Sugar Puffs or Frosties?"
Christine: Yeah.
Bobby: Are you going to take the job or not? And then, like, you're like, "Oh, I understand, like, the beats of this show." Because, I wasn't really sure what it was until I watched it, until I did it. Like, it didn't really make sense, even though I was familiar with the concept of it.
Christine: Well, you also, kind of, have to meet the characters a little bit because a lot of the choices they have you make aren't necessarily character defining for him. It's just, kind of, little things that, kind of, seem inconsequential in this. Like, you know he needs to take action right then. But how did you guys approach, like, making your decisions? Did you have, like, an alignment? Were you trying to, like, mess up his day, or—
Bobby: I was at first. I was trying to see if I could control the narrative in any way and, like, trying to think I understood where it was going. But then, the moment I really started flailing, I was like, "I don't care anymore. I just want to answer and see what happens." I got less invested in, like, taking care of him as I was playing, which I think, is sort of, one of the points of the show.
Kevin: Yeah. I think it was very cognizant that, like, a lot of viewers or maybe it assumed most viewers were going to try and find, like, the darkest path. And, it, like, definitely played into that. That was probably the most pleasing thing about the experience when I realized that, like, oh, like, Charlie Brooker knows exactly who we are here and what we're going to be pick. I feel like the deepest path that I got through, like, had a really dark ending, and I think that's—Is that as far as you can go? What ending did you guys gets?
Bobby: Well, I got—I thought that I was getting different endings because it would, kind of, start over, and then, you would try again. But, I only got the credits once, and then, I didn't start over again. And, the credits I got were when he dies in the therapist office because he ended up taking the train with his mom in the past.
Christine: I had a completely different—
Bobby: Really?
Christine: …movie to yours.
Bobby: Whoa. What happened in yours?
Christine: Nothing that was in your sentence happened in mine.
Bobby: What? He didn't go to therapy at all?
Kevin: What's the most violent thing that happened in your timeline?
Bobby: Yeah. I got a few real, I got a few acts of extreme violence. But yeah, what was your ending?
Christine: The most violent thing that happened might have been the game creator committing suicide in front of me. Did that happen in yours?
Bobby: How?
Kevin: Yeah.
Christine: He jumped off of a building—
Bobby: Okay.
Christine: …in front of me, and then, I murdered my dad in a kitchen.
Bobby: I did that.
Kevin: Yeah.
Bobby: I also did that. Yeah.
Christine: I didn't get on a train ever. Wait. Did you guys identify as Netflix or Symbol when it asked who you were?
Bobby: Well, I had both. The first thing I did was Netflix.
Kevin: Oh, Netflix. That was my favorite part.
Bobby: Yeah. That was the best part.
Kevin: I was dying.
Bobby: But after you identified as Netflix, you didn't go to the therapist office?
Christine: I identified as Symbol. My—
Bobby: Oh.
Christine: …alignment—
Bobby: Okay.
Christine: …while I was making my track, I, like, decided my personality when I went into it, and I was like, "I'm chaotic. Good." Like, I want good things. I want this character to survive long enough to take me through to the end of the narrative. I don't want to constantly be killing him.
Bobby: Right.
Christine: But, I don't want him to have an easy time. And so, like, I was just trying to keep it, like, spicy enough that he was inconvenienced, but straightforward enough that I didn't have to keep starting over.
Kevin: I think I got both of your things because I did that ending, and then, I went back and did the Symbol.
Bobby: Okay.
Kevin: Or, I can't remember which way is which, but then, like, I think I was like, "All right. I'm good for the evening. I do want to do this more." And then, I came across, like, an image on Reddit or something that had, like, all the paths, and I was like, "Oh, my God. I'll never finish this."
Bobby: Yeah. The—Did you—You killed your father, right?
Christine: I killed my father.
Bobby: How did you dispose of the body?
Christine: I buried him in the yard.
Bobby: And, the dog found him.
Christine: No.
Bobby: Oh. A dog didn't find your body?
Christine: Someone, like—
Bobby: Oh.
Christine: Everything about mine was, like, slightly different it sounds like. I buried my dad, and—Wait. But what? You buried your dad, and the dog found it?
Bobby: Yeah. But then, it let me go back. And then, after I buried the dad and the dog found it, then it let me go back to a few choices prior and I did something else.
Christine: Oh, so that was, like, the end of your road when a dog found the—
Bobby: Yeah.
Christine: …body?
Bobby: Yes.
Christine: That's really fascinating.
Bobby: And then, it took me back, and then, I chose a different—Because, you can either choose, like, to look at the book or look at a family photo at one point.
Christine: Yes.
Bobby: And then, I did the opposite thing, and then, I ended up going back in time to the point where I had the rabbit with my mom. And then, I ended up getting on the train with my mom, the train that crashed. But, that was happening in the past, but it affected the current timeline. So, when he was explaining all this to his therapist, the previous timeline was happening, and then, he dies in the past, which means he dies in the therapist's office just suddenly. And, the therapist is like, "What just happened?" And, everyone starts, like, crying and screaming, and then, the credits started rolling. And, I was like, "Oh. I finally got a real ending." It was very dark.
Kevin: I think the ending I got that I liked the most was, like, it ends with them reviewing the game, and it's, like, five out of five. You know, it's like—
Bobby: Oh, you got a five out of five?
Kevin: Yeah. I got a five out of five.
Christine: Congratulations.
Kevin: This is a great ending. And then, what happens is, like, the game is a big success. And then, it's, like, months later, you reveal that, like, the dad is killed. So, they, like, five out of five is, like, that no one should play this game, so they're pulling it off shelves. And then, it's 20 years later, or it's a current timeline, and someone is remaking Bandersnatch. Oh, my God.
Bobby: That's good. That seems like a good ending.
Kevin: I really liked it. Yeah.
Bobby: I got an ending. I did get one ending, like an end of the road, that took me back where he kills his dad, but then, they release the game anyway. Did you get this one?
Christine: That might be the ending that I end up with—
Bobby: Okay.
Christine: …because I buried my dad in the yard and no dog found it. So, I just kept existing through time, and I'm trying to remember what happened after that that led to—Like, my game got released, and I, my boy, my main character, was, like, really paranoid that people were going to find out that, like, he had murdered his dad and that this other game creator was dead. And, I can't remember how it all tied together. It's killing me.
Kevin: We think it's, like, you know, I know it's not a game per se, but, like, part of me, as someone that, like, plays a decent amount of video games, is, like, kept trying to find, like, the good ending. Like, every game with—
Bobby: Yeah.
Kevin: …multiple endings has, like, a best-case ending.
Christine: Yes.
Kevin: You know? And, like, in video games that I don't get it, I look it up on YouTube, you know?
Bobby: Yeah.
Kevin: But, I don't think Bandersnatch has one, as far as I can tell.
Bobby: Yeah. If it's Black Mirror, I think it's going to be a pretty bleak, terrible ending.
Kevin: Which is kind of funny because I actually think my favorite Black Mirror episodes kind of have, like, positive endings. You know? Like, I like, "San Junipero". I like, "Be Right Back". It's so ambiguous. "Hang with DJ" kind of has a sweet ending. You know?
Bobby: I, kind of, do want to watch it again just to see because I know I'm not going to get a good ending. But, I do want to see the other paths because I had no idea that—
Christine: Well, hearing—
Bobby: …it was that complicated.
Christine: So, I chose the family photo first in the situation that comes before burying your dad or not. It just, it sounds like, truly, every question you answer actually impacts the result. Like, even though it's always a binary choice, you're still, kind of, dealing with a lot more exponents—
Bobby: Yeah.
Christine: …than I was aware of when I was playing it.
Bobby: I read that he wrote it on, like, a video game writing piece of software. I don't remember it was called, but basically, it's, like, visual software that lets you make paths.
Kevin: It's probably, like, a flowchart, right?
Bobby: Yeah. It's a flowchart software.
Kevin: Yeah.
Bobby: But, it like, it's meant for those, like, I think, those, like, tell-tale games.
Kevin: Oh, cool. Yeah.
Bobby: I think it's what they're written in. So, next up, we're going to talk to Charlie Brooker, the writer of Bandersnatch about Bandersnatch, and he's going to answer some of your questions from Twitter.
[Music]
Charlie: Hello. I'm Charlie Brooker, writer of Bandersnatch, mostly Black Mirror, and I don't normally wear glasses.
Annabel: Hello. I'm Annabel Jones, co-showrunner with this guy of Black Mirror, and I don't wear glasses.
Charlie: Now, we know each other. So, Emily Vaughn writes to no one in particular to either Bandersnatch code of Frosties or Sugar Puffs. Me, "Ahhh." That's me vocalizing that. Bandersnatch, "Chop up the body or bury it." Me, chop it. Several people have commented on this, that they found the very first choice, which cereal—
Annabel: Yeah.
Charlie: …really hard, where if they—
Annabel: Oh, I see.
Charlie: …if they came to bury or chop him, "Ah, chop him up." But, by that point, they're so acclimatized or—
Annabel: Yeah.
Charlie: …they're so sadistic they don't worry about that at all.
Annabel: Interesting.
Charlie: What does that say about them?
Annabel: That says that was the first question, and the other one was one a lot longer on in the film.
Charlie: It points that they're psychotic, and it is difficult, Frosties or Sugar Puffs. I could wrestle with that one for decades.
Annabel: Were they in America? Were they—
Charlie: I don't know.
Annabel: Could you get Sugar Puffs in America?
Charlie: You can get Frosties technically. You could get Frosted Flakes in America.
Annabel: Oh. No wonder people are confused.
Charlie: Frosted Flakes is a mouthful. That's not, that sounds like a joke. Does it not? It's terrible. Okay. Joseph Scrimshaw, that's a made-up name, isn't it? Bandersnatch sounds like the word Benedict Cumberbatch yells to transform into a superhero. That is a good observation, but Scrimshaw sounds like a verb, doesn't it? Scrimshaw.
Annabel: It does.
Charlie: Scrimshaw sounds like something you do on the beach—
Annabel: Yeah.
Charlie: …when you're, like, forging around for bits of old tar—
Annabel: Yeah.
Charlie: …and stick.
Annabel: Yeah. And—
Charlie: So, there Scrimshaw.
Annabel: …you've lost some coins.
Charlie: Yeah. You're—What are you doing?
Annabel: Yeah.
Charlie: Scrimshawing around. But then, to be fair, Candidate Bandersnatch does sound like Benedict Cumberbatch. Oh, look. The swearing, and this is at G. "Fuck this guy the most, to be honest. #Bandersnatch" That's Robin from Microplay. Yeah. I saw—
Annabel: What?
Charlie: …somebody saying he's like the angel of death.
Annabel: Because it means your story has ended.
Charlie: Yeah.
Annabel: Oh, okay.
Charlie: And, he pops up, and he—
Annabel: Fuck this guy the most. Yeah. Oh.
Charlie: Well, no. I've got a soft spot for Robin. He wears a bowtie while he's reviewing computer games, and I saw somebody doing that in an archived show. In 1984, there's an episode where the bloke's reviewing adventure games. He's wearing a bowtie.
Annabel: And, lovely Robin, that was the first gig he'd ever done, and he was very good.
Charlie: He was very good. He was very, very nice.
Annabel: Very, very good.
Charlie: When Colin told Dude, he's called Stefan.
Annabel: Yeah.
Charlie: We've met before. It's because Colin is a Pax, the demon in human form, and Stefan was better than him, but wasn't controlled. Hence, why we decide what Stefan does. I don't understand that.
Annabel: No.
Charlie: There's lots of theories over who Colin is, that Colin represents this, sort of, beyond time and space kind of entity and is he a demon and is he God. I'd like to think that Colin is God.
Annabel: Yeah. He's my God.
Charlie: Yeah. He's very much my God. I think he's God.
Annabel: Yeah.
Charlie: I love Colin.
Annabel: Oh, don't.
Charlie: Yeah. I'm defrosting mints. Yes. I'm glad people picked up on that because we started saying that a lot in the edits, but it's one of my favorite moments. I don't know why. It made me laugh when I wrote it, and it made me laugh much more when Craig did it.
Annabel: Craig did it.
Charlie: Yeah. It's just the right amount of joy and—
Annabel: Yes.
Charlie: …amazement—
Annabel: Yes.
Charlie: …on his face.
Annabel: With this new-fangled microwave.
Charlie: Yeah. Why does Bandersnatch have to say, "Look! It's a white bear." Because, that's called an Easter egg.
Annabel: Well, and not just an Easter egg.
Charlie: No. It's thematically—
Annabel: Yeah.
Charlie: …it's a thing. It did come about because when we would, at one point, we were drawing a flowchart, and I did literally draw it on a white board and went, "Oh, it's the White Bear." Like, ooh, we've got to incorporate that in some way.
Annabel: A Stefan moment.
Charlie: Yeah. Let's incorporate that in some way just to confuse this one person on Twitter years later.
Annabel: Correct.
Charlie: Yeah. So, that's why.
[Music]
Bobby: Before we move on from Bandersnatch, I just want to ask you some questions and see what paths you would take with these, like, two binaries, three binaries. Sugar Puffs or Frosties?
Kevin: I think I did Frosties.
Christine: I think I did Sugar Puffs.
Bobby: Interesting. I did Frosties.
Kevin: You and me, so different.
Bobby: I did Frosties immediately.
Christine: That's what I love about us.
Kevin: Yeah. I don't know why.
Bobby: Kick Dad in the nuts or karate chop Dad?
Kevin: I kicked him in the nuts.
Christine: I think I kicked him in the nuts too.
Bobby: Kicked him in the nuts?
Christine: Got to kick him in the nuts. They were talking about his nuts.
Bobby: You jump or Colin jumps?
Christine: Colin jumps.
Kevin: I did Colin jumps first.
Bobby: And now, let's go up the rail. So, java or tea?
Christine: Java.
Kevin: Java.
Bobby: Java? Okay. Carol or Abby, the Sarah Paulson character and Carol? Which one?
Christine: Carol, because she's—
Bobby: Carol?
Christine: …Taylor.
Bobby: Carol? Your choice comes up on the screen. Do you watch Green Book or do you watch Bohemian Rhapsody?
Christine: Oh, no. What?
Kevin: Wow, Bobby.
Bobby: Yeah. I'm really—
Christine: The devil's question.
Bobby: …ending with the worst possible timeline.
Christine: We're learning a lot about me today because I'm going to pick Bohemian Rhapsody, and I know I won't like it too.
Kevin: I would probably pick Bohemian Rhapsody.
Bobby: Okay. So, thank you, Kevin and Christine, for joining me on this inaugural episode.
Christine: It's been a pleasure.
Kevin: Thanks for having us.
Bobby: Of course. And, before we move on, I want to ask what's next on your list?
Christine: I think my, like, 2019 resolution with Netflix is to find more international reality shows because they are some great ones on service, I will say. Ainori: Love Wagon is a Japanese dating show about being on a bus. It's cool, and having, like, blasted through a season of that and then this other show that I think is called Are you the One?, both Japanese dating shows, I was like, "Oh, I should, really need to see what other cultures are doing."
Bobby: What about you, Kevin?
Kevin: I just, I want to watch more of the documentary content on Netflix. Like, one day, I'm going to actually watch Icarus. Like, I know it's fantastic.
Bobby: Oh, yeah.
Kevin: I know I'm going to love it, and, instead, like, what I'll probably do is just rewatch all of You—
Bobby: Oh, yeah. do.
Kevin: …which I watched, like, a month ago. But, I'm probably just going to watch it again.
Bobby: You, I'm not done with it yet, but I love You.
Kevin: Oh, it's so good.
Bobby: It's good. I need to finish You, and I need to watch the show that you told me about where—What's it called? The vacation house where you—
Christine: Oh, Instant Hotel.
Bobby: Instant Hotel. I added that to my list. It's always at the top, like, hounding me, but it's the show here you—It's, like, people who have Airbnb's, basically, right?
Christine: It's, like, a season-long reality show with Airbnb hosts staying in each other's properties and rating each other, but they also get to rate each other as guests. So, like, you can't—Like, if you stay in someone's house, and you're like, "Kevin, the linens were disgusting or whatever," then you get to stay in my property next week. And, you can roast me back. So, like, it's both a people-pleasing game and people judging each other's décor.
Kevin: I love a thing where just, like, the balance of power just shifts, you know.
Christine: And, no one knows about it, and you're like, "Wait. I've just been so mean."
Bobby: Okay. So, thank you, Christine and Kevin. We will see you on the episode of I'm Obsessed With This. Please enjoy Bandersnatch, but beware and don't try to get a good ending because you won't. And, have fun tidying up your life. Goodbye.
[Music]