On today's episode, host Bobby Finger welcomes comedian, writer/producer for Desus and Mero on Showtime, and author of the essay collection Nice Try, Josh Gondelman (@joshgondelman), into the studio to discuss one of his favorite standup specials, Chelsea Peretti's One of the Greats. He explains what makes the special so, well, special, provides insights into his own process as well as the comedy scene's ever-changing landscape. He even reveals what his own inevitable special will be called. (Netflix, are you listening?)
Chelsea Peretti: One of the Greats is now streaming.
[Music]
Bobby: Welcome to I'm Obsessed With This, the Netflix podcast about the shows and films viewers cannot get enough of sort of like how some people, Chelsea Peretti not included, can't get enough hugging. And today, I am joined in the studio by Josh Gondelman, comedian, writer, producer for Desus & Mero on Showtime, and the author of the essay collection, Nice Try.
Josh: Thank you so much for having me.
Bobby: Thanks for being here. Your credits—amazing.
Josh: Thank you.
Bobby: What are you doing here?
Josh: Well, I'm enjoying this conversation with you.
Bobby: Josh, you could be anywhere.
Josh: Well, that—
Bobby: Look at this pedigree.
Josh: Certainly. [laughter] I could be on any podcast in Brooklyn right now. [laughs]
[Music]
Josh: It's so cold.
Bobby: It's freezing cold, finally.
Josh: It just got cold. I feel like we skipped a spectrum of temperature, like we skipped the temperature that's, like, 40—45—40-50 degrees.
Bobby: Yeah. No, that's done.
Josh: We just didn't have that.
Bobby: No, that's done.
Josh: It doesn't exist anymore.
Bobby: They just threw us into the deep end.
Josh: Yeah, we go from 50 to 35.
Bobby: And it's—I think the temperature plummeted 20 degrees today.
Josh: Today. From—because my—
Bobby: …the morning.
Josh: Because my dog wakes up very early for to be walked in the morning. And so, when I was up at 5:00, I was almost like, "Oh, I don't need a jacket." And then, by the time I got to my office at noon—I came in a little late today—it was, like, in the 30s, which is, like, I understand intellectually that that happens. But I'm like, "That should not be. The science should not allow it to just get progressively colder as the sun ascends in the sky." [laughs]
Bobby: No. It really just messes with your brain.
Josh: I hate it.
Bobby: Like, our animal brain takes over and it's like, "This isn't right."
Josh: Yeah, this is wrong. I don't care for this. I should be in a cave huddled with my brood. [laugh]
Bobby: And now, I have, like, the—I don't know about your apartment, but mine, it's, like, the calming clinks and thugs and dripping of a radiator for the next several months, which I sort of find comforting and nice.
Josh: I don't mind a radiator sound. I think I grew up with that. I grew up, like, in a—with radiator sounds and light traffic. I lived on kind of a—like a moderately busy street in a fairly small town, so that there were always kind of cards whooshing by into the late evening, but it was not, like, [makes a beeping sound] "Hey, what are you doing out there?" So, I'm always comforted by, like, light traffic.
Bobby: I'm comforted by noise. Silence is too much for me.
Josh: Yeah, same.
Bobby: I’m comforted by just turning on something on Netflix and falling asleep to it.
Josh: Here we go.
Bobby: What is something you watched recently that you've liked that isn't Chelsea Peretti's One of the Greats?
Josh: So, I watch a lot of standup. I, like, really as, like, standup, I’m, like, maybe in a minority of people that, like, enjoy it just as a consumer as well or a fan. And my wife Maris and I watched Jenny Slate's new special, Stage Fright, which is so—It's just, like, so tender and lovely. It's very sweet and pleasant. Yeah.
Bobby: A lot of nice little family insights, like, family moments. It's so much sweeter than I thought it would be.
Josh: So sweet, and the stuff with her grandmothers is especially, like, very cute, which, like, I don't mean to, like, discuss female art as being, like, "Oh, it's cute and precious and whimsical." But I think, like, that is the aesthetic of some of those documentary pieces, just, like, a sweet conversation with an elderly grandmother, which is so—It's just, like, a very—It was a very light and enjoyable feeling experience.
Bobby: Yeah. I mean, I know it wasn't, but it almost felt more like it was toeing the line of documentary about Jane Slate than full-on standup special.
Josh: Yeah. I would have been interested to see, like, see it tilt a little bit more one way or the other, like the standup uninterrupted with kind of a short, you know, ten-minute documentary intro or outro or something or, like, more family stuff with, like, a little less standup even just, like, as kind of set up to these vignettes with the family. But, like, I think the balance that was there was really nice too.
Bobby: Or just send, like, TLC over to her house and do an episode of Celebrity Ghost Hunters. Because [laughs]—
Josh: It was—It felt like a very interesting companion to Gary Gulman's recent special.
Bobby: I haven't seen that.
Josh: It's really great. And it's called The Great Depresh, and it's about depression. And there's similarly documentary style, like he talks with his mother, he talks with his wife. There are scenes with comedian friends, with his psychiatrist, I believe. And the style is similar even though the subject matter is so different, and the—stylistically their comedy is so different. Like, Gary—I think Jenny's performance and Gary's performance are very dissimilar. But it's also, like, you know, I’m always happy to root for the Jews of Massachusetts. [laughter]
Bobby: So am I, you know?
Josh: Thank you. I didn't mean to put you on the spot.
Bobby: As a Christian from Texas, I support the Jews from Massachusetts.
Josh: Take a position on the Jews of Massachusetts [laughter]. It's 2019. Pick a side. [laughs]
Bobby: Yeah. I'm on their side unapologetically.
Josh: Thank you.
Bobby: I'll shout it from the rooftops.
Josh: We're glad to have you. [laughter]
Woman: Thank you so much for coming out. I'm just like you guys. I'm also a huge fan of my work. [laughter] And just really excited to see what I’m going to do up here [laughter] tonight. I am one of the greats. [laughter][applause] One of the top comedians touring the country right now, so it should be a great show. [laughter]
Bobby: So, I think this will seamlessly transition into our conversation about—
Josh: Perfect.
Bobby: Chelsea Peretti's One of the Greats—
Josh: Yes.
Bobby: ...her five year old standup special, which is great. And I hadn't seen it until this week.
Josh: Oh, that's great.
Bobby: I'm not a big standup viewer.
Josh: Sure.
Bobby: Like, I—If I'm going to watch standup, it's sort of like baseball. If I'm going to watch baseball, I’m going to be at the stadium. If I'm going to watch standup—
Josh: You're going to go.
Bobby: ...I'm going to be in the theater.
Josh: Right. Go see something, and, like, go see a live show with someone that you've been, like, waiting to come to town or your favorite performer's throwing a big show. Yeah. I totally understand that.
Bobby: And I don't necessarily just, like, pick and find a new person. But, fortunately, I'm pleasantly surprised by them, when I watch them, because I'm like, "Oh, this is nice. Why don't I do this all the time?"
Josh: It is better live. Like, that's for—that's true. But I think, like, a good special is such a pleasure.
Bobby: Yeah, it really is nice. And I guess as a comedian, because, like I said in the intro, writer, producer, comedian, I feel like I don't know how comedians ingest comedy. And I can assume that because everyone's different, some people probably don't like watching other people's comedy specials, some people do. You've said that you do like watching comedy specials.
Josh: I do.
Bobby: Do you get pure enjoyment out of it just observing the landscape? What do you get out o this? Because it's going to be so different from what I get, which is just pure enjoyment.
Josh: There are some that I watch just to enjoy and, like, appreciate. And it's, like, a real spectrum. It's, like, there's people that I—like this special is one that I watch, because I enjoy it. And I'd seen it once, I think, right when it came out. And then, I rewatched it recently, so we could do—I could talk more informedly. But then, there's the ones that I watch, like, just to get the lay of the land, where I'm like, "Oh, this is an interesting style" or like, "I should know what this person is doing, because they're very influential." And then, there's—There are ones that I watch, like, out of kind of obligation. [laughs] Like, "Oh, I know someone that did this." And like, "Oh, I'll watch it," or know someone, who was involved in this, and I'll watch it. So, the—I end up watching a lot of standup. And it's also, because there aren't that many TV series that I watch by myself, it's nice. I watch more standup than my wife. And so, when I’m watching stuff on my own, it's fun to have, like, a standup special that I'm like, "Oh, I'm looking or—I can enjoy this Wanda Sykes special" that maybe, like, we would scroll by, like, ten times, you know, ten different nights like, "Oh, maybe someday." And then, when I'm alone, it's, like, a very easy thing to watch.
Bobby: And also, they're one and done. Another thing I've come to appreciate about a standup special, you get the whole thing in, you know, 63 minutes.
Josh: Yup, absolutely. It's very single serving. You can—It's also, like, my favorite thing to—If we're talking Netflix specifically, it's my favorite thing to, like, download for, like, a flight. Because it—if you lose visual focus for a minute, it doesn't, like, sink your understanding of what's happening usually.
Bobby: You're giving me some travel tips.
Josh: Yeah, I really like it.
Bobby: I never do that.
Josh: I really like it, especially for, like if I'm flying to Chicago or something, it'll eat up a huge chunk of that. And I'm not going to—it's not like—I've downloaded over and over again. It keeps expiring and I keep redownloading it, the movie Heat. [laughter] And I'm just, like, never in the mood to watch a three-and-a-half hour heist film on, like, 12 square inches of screen.
Man: She got a great ass. And you've got your head all the way up it.
Bobby: As someone in the creative field, there can be a sort of fine line between influence and plagiarism.
Josh: Sure.
Bobby: Do you find yourself watching them with any sort of anxiety. I was wondering that. Like, how do comedians watch these things and want to be inspired and want to figure out what the landscape is without saying like, "Oh damn. I wanted to make that sort of joke." Or like, "Oh, I can't make that joke." Does it affect your professional life in a way?
Josh: I like knowing what there is to maneuver around and like knowing what the—what has been covered in a lot of ways. And sometimes I'll see something and I'll have, like, a different take on the same topic, where it's different enough that it's like, "Oh, that is influenced by, like, oh, that's an area of my life that I hadn't considered opening up." But it's, like, because my writing style and perspective are different enough that it's—you wouldn't even know that it—If you watched both back to back, you would just think, "Oh, they both are interested in the same topic."
Bobby: Got you.
Josh: But the one thing that kind of frustrates me sometimes is that, like, because I watch a lot of standup and enjoy a lot of standup, I wish there were some way to, like, google bits more effectively. Like, I always joke about having a—oh, starting a Facebook group for, like, 25 comics that I trust that you wouldn't just put something out there and then they would take it that would be just called, like, "Hey, have you heard anything like that?" [laughter] And you just write, like, what the thing is, and then you go, "Oh, you know who has a thing like—there was a—there's an old Headburg joke about this." Or like, "Hannibal Burris did something like this on his last special."
Bobby: Yeah, it's just something—It was I found myself thinking about it watching the Chelsea thing, because I was putting myself—I was trying to put myself in a comedian's shoes and being, like, it feels like it would be this, like, needling anxiety that wouldn't go away when you're performing this thing. And especially because of the nature of comedy when it's meant to be relatable, so it shouldn't necessarily be surprising that you would have the same thought or find the same thing funny. And it's like, "Oh, God, that would drive me crazy." Like, how do you that?
Josh: But there was a thing on Jenny Slate's new special that I had—it's one just a very quick line that I had paralleled written but never performed. And it was she's describing her grandmother and—so, she's built like a cocktail shrimp [laughter], which is, like, how I have—I had written that as, like, a—I've been saying comedically in various capacities that I have the posture of a croissant. And I was trying to find, like, another way to say it. And I was like, "Oh, a cocktail shrimp is another thing that kind of has that, like, gentle curl." And then, I saw her do it, and I was like, "Oh, I'm so glad that I watched this and didn't do this thing completely parallel and then find out eight months later, like when I went to record it for something, that she had done that also." So, I like the professional due diligence. There's also on the—One of the Greats, there's a joke that I think about so often that I'm like, it's like one of the two jokes that I'm, like, most jealous of anyone. And I don't know that I would have written it, if I hadn't seen this special, but, like, I think it in my own life as not a joke, this premise that she has. And I'm like, "Oh, that's Chelsea Peretti's bit about wanting to—wishing you could text your dog, when you're at a party." [laughter] And I think about that so much. And it just, like, to—I, like, my—Because Maris and I, my wife, when I always talk about like, "Oh, I wish we could just call her and be, like, hey, we're, like—we'll be—we're leaving in, like, an hour. We'll be home in, like, 80 minutes, like, just chill." And like—
Bobby: This is your dog, Busy.
Josh: Our dog Busy, who's a pug, who whenever we are not at home is definitely asleep, like, does not have any hobbies.
Bobby: Does not wish she could text you. Yeah.
Josh: No. She, I mean maybe if she's, like, hungry, she would be like, "Hey, what the hell, guys?" But usually we try to—That's the number one thing is, like, we know she—make sure she has plenty of food before we leave, so she doesn’t get fussy. She's getting cranky in her old age.
Bobby: Oh, she is?
Josh: Mm-hmm [affirmative].
Bobby: Yeah. So are my cats. So, Chelsea Peretti, One of the Greats. I think the best way to start talking about it is the opening—
Josh: It's awesome.
Bobby: …which is sort of, like, a parody of predominantly male, very '80s and '90s like. When you think of a standup special, when you think of, like, the prototypical standup special, its, like Eddie Murphy. It's like, "This is what you see," and she did a sendup of it, so yeah.
Josh: It's great. Oh, I love it. I recommend it to people. I was like, "Even if you don't know if you want to watch this special, watch the intro. It's so funny." And it's her talking about this is her first hour special. And she opens doing this kind of retrospective of this fictitious, long decades long standup career, and showing clips from these fake specials that she'd performed. And there's one—there's, like, very aggressive ones, very kind of—there's one that's, like, I think it's pretty clearly she's doing Mike Birbiglia, like, in a sleeping bag.
Bobby: Oh, in the sleeping back. [laughs]
Josh: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's so funny. And she's, like, riding a motorcycle to the venue. It's just, like, the mock hubris is so funny to me.
Bobby: And it's not nasty, which I appreciated.
Josh: It's not nasty, no.
Bobby: Like, it comes from a place of respect, which I feel like is the line you always are—want to be on in comedy.
Josh: It's—and other than the Mike Birbiglia one and, like, the kind of Eddie Murphy clothes in the other one, she's not, like—and I don't even think either of this are, like, taking shots at someone.
Bobby: No. Yeah.
Josh: I think it's just, like, using them as touchstones of, like, these are recognizable things that you've seen, and I've done them all. And so—and, like, the fun is, like, she clearly hasn't, [laughter] and it's not mean spirited. It's just, like, here are these visual touchstones, and it's, like, affectionate mocking of the form, which I love. I—One thing I love about the whole special is that it is—There are elements throughout it that are, like, gently poking fun at and probing the form of an hour standup comedy special without being like, "Isn't it stupid I'm doing this?" You know? Because I think you can get too referential. Like, I enjoy jokes. I enjoy standup comedy as a form of entertainment and expression and writing and performance. And so, I like that she's doing sincere standup comedy bits. She's not just like, "Isn't it weird that I'm up here talking?" But there's also these elements of, like, the intro is very, like, poking fun at the form. And then, throughout there are, like, cutaways to the audience, and there'll be dogs in the audience. Or there's, like, her dressed as a clown in the wings making fun.
Bobby: Stalking.
Josh: Yeah, stalking her, mocking her. And it's, like, I love those little flourishes, because I think it adds texture, but it doesn't, like, denigrate the form as much as it pokes fun at it from a place of, like, "I'm doing this sincerely, and here are the parts of this that are a little ridiculous."
Bobby: Yeah, there's, like, a palpable reverence to the whole thing. Like it's she's like, "No, I—" You can tell that she is very grateful for the opportunity to do this. Like, there's not—she's not doing anything disdainfully.
Josh: Yeah.
Bobby: There's no condescension there. And also, it was interesting, because I didn't—I had forgotten when this came out, and it's now five years old.
Josh: Yeah, I didn't—I had—I would have guessed, like—
Bobby: 2014.
Josh: I would have guessed, like, 2017 probably.
Bobby: Yeah, and watching it at this moment, I found myself wondering, like, what would this special have looked like, if it came out two years later?
Josh: Totally.
Bobby: Which I feel like sort of speaks to American culture in 2014 too. Like, everything was fine. Like, things were bubbling up to the surface, but we were like, "Okay," sort of not acknowledging them, you know.
Josh: Like, the culture itself. Like, we were like—there were—there was a if not totally widespread, a more widespread idea of, like, we're holding it together. Even when things are breaking, it's like, "Okay. We can deal with this issue." Even when there are very serious, horrible things happening, people are like, "This is an issue we have to deal with." And then, starting, like, late 2015 through 2016, more and more people were going like, "It's rotten to the core." And, like, obviously, there were, I think, like, maybe white people came to that realization last.
Bobby: A little late.
Josh: Yeah.
Bobby: A little late.
Josh: But I do think that—I think you're right to say that, like, in 2014 there was less of a fully permeated feeing of, like, things being mostly bad.
Bobby: Yeah, and there's—but there's still like—and I think even Chelsea in terms of comedy—and maybe my view of comedy is a little limited, but even she sees to be a little ahead of the curve.
Josh: Yeah.
Bobby: And there's, like, there's an anger there that maybe I wouldn't have noticed in 2014. But, like, watching it now, it's like, I wonder what I would have thought about this had I watched this five years ago.
Josh: Yeah.
Bobby: And, like, how my view would have changed now. And, like, what she wanted to say and, like, felt that she couldn't say. Like, this will go down as a very interesting, like, cultural artifact to people, who watch comedy. Like, revisiting this in ten years, 20 years, will be really interesting.
Josh: That is interesting, because I don't think it was—It has aged well, but it does feel like if it came out in 2017, she might have gone even harder and deeper into certain topics, if that's what you're saying.
Bobby: No, that's exactly what I'm saying. But it's—I mean, it's still obviously very funny, but she's—
Josh: It's so funny, yeah.
Bobby: She's talking about creeps in DMs, like, she's talking about, like, income disparity and just, like, gender disparity. And it's, like, obviously, very thoughtful. But I just found myself wondering, like—
Josh: It's so interesting.
Bobby: …you can tell that she wants to turn it up.
Josh: Yeah.
Bobby: And maybe I’m projecting, but it's, like, there's—Because she's clearly a very smart person.
Josh: Really smart.
Bobby: A thoughtful comedian.
Josh: And the material is really smart and thoughtful. And so, that's why I, like, I wanted to reiterate, like, it's not like what she said, you're like, "Oh, we're in a different world and this doesn't make sense." But it definitely—I almost feel like this is, like, kind of a contrary hot take. I almost feel like it's slightly more timeless, because it's not—because it's not, like, mentioning, like, "And Harvey Weinstein," etcetera, etcetera. But it is not oblivious to the specific stories of the Me Too movement has brought to the forefront.
Bobby: Yeah, and they're in there.
Josh: Yes. She's one of the people that I am most excited for, like if and when she decides to do a new hour special. She's, like, one of the people that I'm like—like, I've seen just through friends in L.A. or, like, people that I follow in L.A., like, her name has come up on lineups like more frequently lately.
Bobby: Oh, like she's planning something?
Josh: And I’m just—Yeah, like, which I don't know that. Like, this is not reporting anything other than like, "Oh, I’m so psyched that she's doing standup, because I'm—I really like her work." She has such a great blend of writing and performance, where she's clearly, like, thoughtful about her delivery on stage. An, like, she moves back—she's moving on stage and she's, like, there's gestures. I know that's, like, so bland to say like, "But she gestures." But it's, like, her performance fills the space is, I think, the way that I mean to say it. It's like—
Bobby: Maybe as someone, who probably wasn't looking for that, I didn't even notice that until you said it.
Josh: Yeah, there's—Yeah, she's filling the space with intent and, like, with physicality. And the writing is so funny. Like, it's—and it's not overwritten, which I always admire. Like someone like her and someone like Gary Gulman, who I mentioned before, to come to—like she has that that joke, where she sets up, like, a friends and something like vaguely non-negative about Hitler. And then, the response, the sarcasm, which is like, "What are you doing here?" And it's, like, so funny, because it's not like, "What the hell are you talking about?" which is, like, maybe the, like, level one to respond to that with, like, kind of righteous indignation. But like, "What are you doing here?" is so, like, "What is your game?" is, like, so funny a respond to someone would be like, "You know, the blah blah blah Hitler." And then, just to, like, respond of, like, as if they were, like, trying to trick you into going to the restaurant they wanted to go to. [laughs] And, like, I just, like, love that blend. And I think the individual bits, there are so many that I really like. The one about why do surfers talk differently is so funny. [laughter] Like, why does having—doing an activity, like, change your accent is so good. And the dog one that I mentioned before, what we wanted to text a dog. There's just, like, the bits individually are so strong. And I feel like it really sustains for an hour, where you're like, "I just want to hear what this person thinks about things for as long as she'll tell us."
Bobby: Yeah. And I love the asides that she did. And I was like, that must be this burden as a comic whenever you are given the opportunity to do some sort of, like, high profile special like this, and you're, like, "How do I set myself apart?" And in her case, it was like, "I’m going to do these weird asides in the audience. There will be puppets there. There will be people like—" There was a guy, like, eating a hardboiled egg at some point. There's that clown. Do you find yourself fantasizing about that and, like, thinking about it, like, intellectually? Like, what am I going to do when that happens?
Josh: Yeah, I think about those kind of things a lot, the hypotheticals and, like, what I want from standup. And I think, like, this is one that I just love so much. Because it's tweaking the form without being like, "And I’m burning it down." [laughter] And so—and I think of that's, like, the level that I—That's like a frequency that I really—that really resonates with me of, like, I understand the history of this. I'm not going to try to do it in, like, a corny way. Like, I'm self-aware of how it's going to come off. Like, I had a premise at one point of doing a special. There's this, like, beautiful little theater in my home town, and having a special, where I was walking from my parents house to this theater to tape—It's like 300 seats ish—and I keep running into people from my home town on the way, who are either like, "Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'll be there," or, like, completely unaware that I'm a comedian. [laughter] And then, when I show up, there's nobody at the theater, which I thought would be, like, a very funny intro. And then, like, you know, whatever people finally—I think originally it was going to be people, like, wandering in and out. But, like, I think about it a lot, because, like, even the size of the venue impacts so much of—and the way the venue itself look. Like Deon Cole and John Mulaney both did specials this year that look gorgeous. Like John Mulaney's at Radio City Music Hall. And I forget where Deon Cole filmed, but it looks stunning. And that's, like, so—That does so much of, like, when you're in this big, beautiful theater killing, as Chelsea Paretti's special is too at the Palace of Fine Arts or something in San Francisco.
Bobby: Yeah, Palace of Fine Arts. Hm-hmm [affirmative].
Josh: And, like, that makes so much of a difference. But—or you could do it in a very small place like Wyatt Cenac a couple of years ago did a special called Brooklyn at Union Hall, which is teeny tiny. And the intimacy of that, and he would, like, intercut it with, like, there were some puppets. There were some puppets there. And it just felt very, like, intimate and cozy and like storyteller-y in a way that, like, you felt like the venue and the production suited how personal it was and the pacing of the stories. And so, I think about that a lot. Like, what would suit me? And I think, like, a theater that looks a little glitzy, but isn't too big. Because I don't perform in big theaters so often, I don't have, like, big theater energy.
Bobby: Yeah. Big theater energy. [laughs]
Josh: I have, like—Because I perform mostly in comedy clubs and, like, little alternative venues, so I have, like, an energy that suits performing to, like, a couple hundred people. And I think that that's—when you take someone that performs like that and put them in a room of 1,500 people just for the special, right, like they're touring, working, shopping it in smaller venues, I think sometimes it reads a little bit of lie, "Oh, these—your—" The laughs usually come differently.
Bobby: You've recorded a couple and released a couple comedy albums. When you know that it's rolling, how does that effect your performance?
Josh: I interestingly feel, like, more loose, when I'm recording the album than the few weeks before when I'm running—
Bobby: Really?
Josh: …the set. Because when I'm running the set, I'm, like, trying to just remember how it goes in a lot of ways or, like, see—make sure it hangs together, make sure I'm not, like, even doing something silly like using the same word too many times over the course of an hour, so that it's conspicuous. But then, when I'm recording, I'm like, "Okay. Here we are. You know what you're doing, so, like, let's see if there's anything in this moment that is really vital or lively in the moment." And I enjoy doing—Like, I don't go totally wild riffing, but it is, like, if I have an idea, I will say it. Like, I'll follow a thread. Or if something interesting happens in the room, I'll follow that threat, just for the sake of, like, "Well, we're here now and this is what it is. And, like, I’m not going to write myself a whole new bit, but if I think of something fun, because the—" I think it's easier to write on stage, when the audience is better, like when they're laughing already and you can just kind of, like, keep bopping the balloon up in the air or whatever, it's so much—And in, like, a really [unintelligible 00:25:37] for a recording is, like, fun like that.
Bobby: Yeah. I can feel like that—I feel—and I feel like that would sort of be the case, if it were filmed. Like, just it's still recorded—
Josh: Yeah, I think so.
Bobby: It's the same thing.
Josh: Yeah. And there's, like, an excitement in the crowd. And there's—you—it's an hour that you've put together—
Bobby: Like, if you're on TV or something.
Josh: Yeah, and you know what you're doing. And, like, it's a little different with, like, a five-minute—like a late night set, because you have the parameters that it has to fit, like you're shooting it to time. But, like, when you're recording something that's your own special, if you, like, go a few minutes over, it's just more that's going to get cut, but that's okay.
Bobby: That's fine.
Josh: Yeah, and it's, like, the potential benefits, I think, of being, like, present in the moment are really great.
Bobby: When you've done late-night shows, I would assume that that's, like, one of the best audiences you could possibly have, because they're usually, like, hyped up tourists, who will just, like, they want to love everything. Like, they're just a kind, excited audience. Is that the case?
Josh: They're generous, but I don't—It's tough, because you're the only standup they've seen in a lot of cases. Like, you're coming on at the end of a taping of a show, where they came to see the host probably, and they've already seen celebrities. And so, you are—they're nice in that they know to clap and cheer [laughter], but it's a little bit like you're doing their—They're seeing the thing you're doing for the first time, so sometimes you have to, like, snap them into it a little bit of, like, "Here's a quick joke, so you know that I know how to tell jokes." Because they don't know who you are. That's the other thing of, like, at my album tapings, the last couple have been, like, rooms of 200 plus, I think. I think I had, like, 225 for my previous album. And then, I did my last one at the Bell House in Brooklyn, which packs out at, like, 350. So, it was in that neighborhood. And those people came there intentionally to see me. So, like, when I got on stage, they were like, "Great. This is the part I came for." Whereas—
Bobby: Yeah, we like--
Josh: …they like you—When you're at—Yeah, exactly. We already like you. But when you're at a taping of, like, a late night show, they're there to Jimmy Fallon and what Jimmy Fallon presents. But, like, I did a spot on The Late, Late Show with James Cordon, which was very fun, and the audience was really great. But they'd already seen James Cordon, the guy, whose name is on the sign. And then, the guests were Jessica Alba and Gabrielle Union, who are, like, A-list stars. And then, they're like, "And now, this guy." So, it did—It takes—They were ready, but I think, if I hadn't done a good job, it would have shown up, you know. [laughs] Because I don't think they were there to, like—I think they would have noticed.
Bobby: But you did a good job.
Josh: Thank you. I tried to a good job.
Bobby: You did a good job.
Josh: I think it was good.
Bobby: Speaking of good jobs, we can start wrapping this up—
Josh: Sure.
Bobby: ...because I've taken the amount of time I said I would take from you.
Josh: No, this has been lovely.
Bobby: But do you know the—I believe it used to be a Vulture podcast. Now it may not be, but the Jessie David Fox podcast?
Josh: Love it. Yeah.
Bobby: What is—So, it's a podcast about, like, a great joke, comedians interviewing comedians and talking about, like, a good joke that's, like, their good one, the history of it. What is your, like, favorite little bit? What's the best one from this Chelsea Peretti special? What are you most obsessed with to use this language?
Josh: Oh, man. That dog bit is so funny and good. I've talked about it so much.
Chelsea: I wish I could text my dog. Like, that is so irritating to me that I can text everybody in my life that I love except my dog. And he would be the perfect person to text, because he's always home. [laughter] Okay? He would always be available. I could be uncomfortable at a dinner party and just shoot him a text just like, "Hey. What are you doing?" [laughter] "What are you doing little cutie?" [laughter] And then, he'd write back just like, "Nothing [laughter] as per ush, what about you?" I'd just write back, "I feel awkward at this party. I don't know what to do." And he'd just be like, "Sniff people's butts." [laughter] And I'd be like, "Dude, that's more your thing. That's not something I do." And he'd be like, "Oh, sorry. I can't read your mind at all times. I'm just trying to help out. I'm sorry. I mean, [laughter] why don't you just lick your own butt and then try to lick them right here, like right inside their lip? [laughter] Right, right there." I'm like, "Dude, once again, [laughter] you're looking at my life through the prism of your own experience. [laughter] It's, like, fucked up." And he's like, "All right, well, like, what about try to go outside. It's so fucking cool out there. [laughter] Like, even if you could just look out a window for a second, I promise you [laughter] there is shit you can see that no one else can see, Chelsea." [laughter] I'm like, "Dude, fuck you." [laughter] Click. And then people are like, "Are you all right?" I'm like, "Yeah, I just got in a fight with this guy. [laughter] He's a dog."
Josh: The testing the dog thing, I’m just like, "Oh." Like, almost mad she got there first in a jealous way. And I think, like, one of the best compliments you can give a—I mean, like—
Bobby: As a comedian—
Josh: As a comedian—
Bobby: …to a comedian.
Josh: Comedian to comedian is, like, "I'm so mad at you for writing that bit, because it's so good." Not like career jealousy. Not like, "I'm jealous that you booked that role in this TV show, but like, "That joke you wrote is so good, it makes me mad," is, like, my favorite compliment.
Bobby: You want to be jealous of other comedians.
Josh: Yes. And jealous of their capacity to create and, like, recognize stuff that you're like, "Oh, you got it." Like, you found this thing that I didn't realize I was looking for.
Bobby: And ultimately, do you feel that watching specials like this improves your own comedy?
Josh: I think so, yeah. Because I think there's—unless you are a—one of one genius, who's doing something with no precedent, which I am definitely not one of those, [laughter] I think the—who—and in that case, by looking at other stuff, you're, like, diluting your own unique vision or you could be. I find, like, to see—to know what I like and even in stuff that I'm, like, that is not my style to know, like, "Oh"—Like in Deon Cole's special. I think we perform very different kinds of standup comedy, but, like, the way he—the confidence and, like, the time he takes with his jokes, I’m like, "Oh, yeah. That's something I should think of. I don't just have to, like, fill silence with words." And, like, watching Chelsea Paretti's special, it's like, "Oh, yeah. She has, like, really smart, incisive ideas, like, side by side with really silly, big performative stuff." And I think it makes me better to see the tools that other people are working with. Not necessarily like what they—not always what they do with those tools, but just like, "Oh, this is the kind of thing that is possible to do. And it's not just like the things that I would do, if I was writing infinitely in a little black box or whatever."
Bobby: I think that's a lovely response.
Josh: Thank you.
Bobby: And a nice place to come to our conclusion. Final question, what will your Netflix special be called.
Josh: Oh, so I think I have a title for this.
Bobby: Okay, what is it?
Josh: Which is Drew Grant, who used to write for The Observer—
Bobby: Oh, I know Drew.
Josh: Yeah, yeah, yeah—once wrote that my personality was pathological sweetheart. [laughter] And I think I would steal that from her. I almost called my book that.
Bobby: Pathological Sweetheart? [laughs]
Josh: Yeah, but my agent was like, "But what is that?" [laughter] And I think with a special, it, like, you have to do a little less of the work of, like, drawing people to it. And with a book, I think the publisher—
Bobby: People are going to judge it by the cover usually.
Josh: Exactly, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Bobby: Well, Pathological Sweetheart. That will be great.
Josh: Thank you.
Bobby: I can't wait to see it on lights.
Josh: Thank you.
Bobby: This was so much fun. Thank you for coming here to talk about this.
Josh: Thank you for having me.
Bobby: You can watch Desus & Mero on Showtime now. You can buy Nice Try anywhere you get books.
Josh: Oh, yeah.
Bobby: And you can watch Chelsea Peretti, One of the Greats on Netflix right now.
Josh: Yeah.
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