This week on I’m Obsessed With This, host Bobby Finger welcomes co-hosts of the podcast Couples Therapy and actual fiancées Naomi Ekperigin (@blacktress) and Andy Beckerman (@andybeckerman) to talk about a show that unexpectedly made their relationship stronger: Kakegurui. Yes, it's a show about teenaged compulsive gamblers, but that doesn't mean watching it together can't be romantic! Also discussed, sci-fi blockbuster The Wandering Earth, Mindhunter, and Explained. "Yeah," Naomi says of scrolling through the list of episodes. "I do want to know how animals' minds work!"
All episodes of Kakegurui are now streaming on Netflix.
[Intro music]
Bobby: Welcome to I'm Obsessed With This, the Netflix podcast about the shows and films the viewers cannot get enough of, sort of like how the students at Hyakkaou Private Academy cannot place enough bets. And today I'm joined by Naomi Ekperigin and Andy Beckerman. They're writers, they're comedians, they're affianced [laughter], and they're co-hosts of the podcast Couples Therapy. It's also a live show. And they are in LA right now. I'm not. We had a nice little moment between the three of us. It was really good. We've never met. I'm, like, intimately acquainted with the two of you now.
Andy: Yes. We bonded. Our souls are like the caduceus. How do you pronounce that, the medical thing where all the things are intertwined?
Naomi: I'm not familiar.
Bobby: Is Christine there? We just did a Diagnosis episode and I have not watched enough Diagnosis to know what that thing is [laughter].
Andy: Well, everyone's got a phone. Look it up.
Bobby: I trust you both. How are you two? You said you're going to a pumpkin patch after this?
Naomi: Yes. You know, it's important in a relationship to create new experiences, you know, new dynamics. And Andy suggested going to a pumpkin patch.
Andy: Let's be honest about Los Angeles: There is a dearth of things—Naomi immediately looked at me like "Why are you going down this path?" But I'm being honest, Naomi.
Naomi: He does it every single time. And it's, like, literally, we get it. You hate it [laughter].
Andy: It's essentially the suburbs, but worse. And so you have to create your own fun here. And I'm from the regular old suburbs in Pennsylvania. And that was, I remember, hayrides around this time, pumpkin patches.
Bobby: Just exclusively pumpkin. You grew up on a pumpkin patch, right?
Naomi: Yes.
Andy: Here, look, if everyone wants to know the truth, I grew out of a pumpkin.
Naomi: Hm-hmm [affirmative].
Andy: Like the Cabbage Patch Kids? But I was a Pumpkin Patch Kid.
Naomi: Yeah. I mean, honestly, Bobby, again, you can't see Andy, but he has a beautifully round face. So you know, should he tell you he was…
Andy: Deep orange.
Naomi: …a pumpkin, you would say, "I buy it."
Bobby: Do you have that cute little, like, leafy collar coming up around your neck? Do you wear a lot of green turtlenecks?
Naomi: Yes.
Andy: Well, to offset, I mean, to be fair, the orange comes from I have a weird kind of jaundice [laughter]. So it is not…
Bobby: Oh, I'm sorry.
Andy: It's not really from the pumpkinyness. It's from my diet.
Bobby: Do you have carving aspirations? Do you have carving plans? What's going to happen with those pumpkins?
Naomi: I don't know. Andy, do you have carving aspirations? You are artistic.
Andy: No. That's one step too far.
Naomi: I would like to be able to carve, but I'm not willing to purchase the accoutrement necessary, do you know what I mean? Like, it's, like I got to get, like, an X-acto. And you're tracing, you're planning. Maybe I can get someone to do it for me.
Andy: I'm afraid of knives and their ability to end my life.
Bobby: But by the time this episode airs, it will be post-Halloween. Though I guess it's still Fall season, so it's gourd season.
Naomi: It's still gourd.
Bobby: Like, these pumpkins are still going to be out and around.
Naomi: Oh, yeah. Everywhere. We're going to have pumpkins till Christmas.
Andy: By the way, an Eyes Wide Shut pumpkin party is when you put the pumpkin on your head and then you have that kind of weird orgy thing.
Naomi: Thank you for clarifying, Andrew.
Bobby: So we are here to talk about [laughter] Kakegurui, which is an anime. But before we get into that, let's talk more about pumpkins. I'm kidding. Let's talk about other things you've been watching on Netflix that you've been enjoying, individually, together as a couple, because again, you are affianced. Congratulations. What are some things you've been watching and loving lately on Netflix?
Naomi: Okay. So I literally have my Netflix app open right now and was, like, scrolling because I watch a lot on my phone, too, because I like to—like to? No. I wake up in the middle of the night and cannot go back to sleep [claps hands] as the dark thoughts swirl in. And so [laughs] I would just, like, watch stuff on my phone. But okay, you know I'm getting down with MINDHUNTER season two. You know that dynamic is wonderful. It's, like, especially, like, the closeness between these two men. Like, learning how to have a connection. Loving every second of it.
I've also been getting down with BoJack. New season, of course. And you know what I started? I started Explained, that show where, like, it's, like, a half-hour episode and it's, like, explaining a new thing.
Bobby: Yeah, the Vox show.
Naomi: Yeah. And I'm into it. I mean, I kind of watch it based on the topic, you know what I mean? I'm, like, I scroll through, I'm, like, "Yeah, I do want to know how animals' minds work," you know? And then I'm, like, "Let's get into it."
Okay. I'll tell you what I watch where I was, like, I got to get into it. I watched the episode about cults because, you know, so far, you know, we live in LA, we've lived in two different places. And in both places we've been within…
Andy: Spitting distance.
Naomi: ...of a Scientology center. And so I was, like, what is this and how do you draw the line and how do you define, you know, religion v. cult or any kind of, like, organized group versus cult? And more so, like, how you get involved. Because like, honestly, I'm pretty depressed. If, like, you told me to come into a building and I would get answers, I might do it [laughter]. So I'm really trying [laughs] to, like, fortify myself against the darkness. And so watching that episode, I'm, like, "Okay. I need individual connections. I need to stay questioning. Do not accept anyone who says the only way is to listen to them and if I don't listen to them, I will be punished," you know?
Andy: Have you ever imagined, Naomi, like, since I was a kid and learned about cults, I think Heaven's Gate was the first one I learned about. Or Koresh, the Branch Davidians. Ever since then, I've been obsessed with, like—yeah, yeah, I've been obsessed. Can I, would I hold out? Like, if they just fed me gruel for weeks, would I still hold onto my indominable will? Or would I crumble?
Naomi: You would get kicked out of a cult within four days [laughter]. Because it would be like "He won't stop talking. He's asking too many questions." Like, you wouldn’t—Yeah, you wouldn't hang. They would kick you out.
Andy: Yeah. Oh, you think they wouldn’t, like, see me as a challenge?
Naomi: No. They don't want a challenge. They want you to just [laughs], like, literally sign—like, you know, leave all your belongings to them and be quiet about it.
Andy: Yeah, but what if they want all my X-Men comic books? They're going to have to break me [laughter].
Naomi: Does that answer your question, Bobby [laughter]?
Bobby: It does. I'm not even sure what my question was, but it answered something and I'm satisfied by it.
Naomi: [Laughs] Good.
Bobby: And what about you, Andy? What have you been watching?
Andy: Well, I have to look up the name of it. I watched a Chinese movie the other day with my friend. And it's supposed to be the, like, number one film in the world, number one, like, highest grossing film in the world. But because we are in America and America hates anything that's outside its borders, no one here heard of it before Netflix.
Bobby: The Wandering Earth?
Andy: Yes. Thank you very much. The Wandering Earth. And it was great for a while because what they did was they took a post-Apocalyptic world, not to wrench it into anime too soon, but it's usually a world you only see in anime. Like, a fully functioning post-Apocalyptic world. All the kinds of, like, American disaster films you see are always, like, Mad Max type. And I don’t know if that's an Eastern versus Western thing or it just happened to be The Wandering Earth. That's the way the story was and so they followed it like that.
But basically, you have a very, I would say, innovative setup in which the sun is going to go supernova, I think, way too early. And so they just build a bunch of rockets into the earth and then move the earth [laughter]. And the earth is going to go on a 2500-year journey to another star system. So basically, they're piloting the earth like a starship.
Naomi: [Laughs] That sounds wonderful.
Andy: Of course, the most sci-fi thing of it is that in the face of disaster, humans work together [laughter].
Bobby: I love when I expect a title of something to be some sort of metaphor. You know, this piece of symbolism. But it's really like no, they put some rockets in the earth and now it's wandering through the solar system.
[Music plays]
Andy: Yeah, yeah.
Bobby: Okay.
Andy: As literal as it gets.
[Clip plays]
Bobby: So when we asked you for thoughts of things you were obsessed with on Netflix, you came back with a few options. And then you said, "Well, you know, my fiancé"—I like saying that [laughter]—"my fiancé and I watch anime together and really love it," and especially this one that you were watching, Kakegurui. And it's this thing that has sort of brought us together." How did you discover this show? Because it's not exactly huge here. It's based on this, like, manga. How did the show come to you? Because I had never heard of it until your e-mail.
Andy: Well, you're welcome [laughter]. And I hope it's changed your life. You know, when you're in a couple, one of the things you do to pass the time is watch [laughter] things together.
Naomi: I mean, it's really the bulk of it. And I didn't realize that, you know what I mean? Like, growing up and really wanting a boo, and then getting in a serious relationship and realizing 90 percent of it is, like, "Are we going to watch that? Don't watch that without me." So we were…
Andy: Finding meals to eat together and things to watch together are the bulk of a relationship.
Bobby: [Overtalk] "What are you going to watch? What are we going to watch? I'm almost done with dinner. What are we going to put on?"
Naomi: Exactly. That's it. That's, like, always it. And so I feel like it was specifically we were in a low point, meaning, like, we didn't have any new shows. Low point. It was like we were between seasons of stuff.
Bobby: Oh, no.
Naomi: Do you know what I mean?
Andy: Yeah, we moved to the Los Angeles in the summer of 2017. And you know, summer's a dead spot for new television. Till everything got upended. Now it's year-round. But no, even in the summer, even now, it's still kind of a low point. There's not a ton of new things coming out. And so one night, I believe—I can picture it, Naomi, in our first apartment here. We were on the couch just casting about for something watch.
Naomi: Yeah.
Andy: I remember watching anime movies when I was a kid. So when I was a kid, Akira was big, Ghost in the Shell and Vampire Hunter D [laughter], if I remember correctly. And of course, you know what the D stands for.
Bobby: Yeah.
Andy: "Dentist".
Bobby: Yep, "Dentist."
Andy: And then I think there was a resurgence for me when I was in grad school. And I watched Neon Genesis Evangelion and Death Note…
Naomi: Both on Netflix, by the way.
Andy: …and Cowboy Bebop. Which is not, so we should never speak of it again. So, like, I've watched it, I've watched anime before, but how did I talk you into it? Now that I'm, like, saying it out loud.
Naomi: Well, I'll tell you this, right? It was one of those moods. You know these moods, especially when you're scrolling through Netflix and stuff where you're, like, I want to watch something, but, like, I don't want something heavy. I don’t want something that's going to, like, make me think too much. I kind of just want something a little silly and light. And so we were trying to find that sweet spot.
Bobby: And I kind of want to be on my phone during it.
Andy and Naomi: Yes.
Bobby: Yeah.
Andy: Candy Crush Jelly [laughter].
Naomi: So it was, like, it was definitely that feel.
Bobby: [Overtalk] Hm-hmm [affirmative]. Matchington Manor [SIC]. I'm with you, I'm with you [laughter].
Naomi: And so we were, like, "Okay. What is going to, like, hit that sweet spot?" And again, the episodes were only, you know, like, 25 minutes. So it was, like, "Okay. Like, let's give it a try." And then the description of the show, which is, it is about a high school for gamblers, immediately drew us in. We were, like, this sounds so fucking weird, let's see what it is.
Andy: But I'm asking you specifically, Naomi, because I definitely look like I have a hard drive full of tentacles and you [laughter] are a gorgeous black woman comedian.
Naomi: Thank you so much, Andy. Did you hear that? I hope you're recording. He's so gorgeous.
Bobby: I can, like, feel your love. All the way over here in New York.
Naomi: Wow.
Andy: So what, like, what was it for you? Were you just, like, "Okay, I'll"…
Naomi: Well, I told you. Just what I just said. It was like it sounds so weird and random. And I've always, like, been fascinated by nerd culture.
Andy: Okay.
Naomi: Like, you know, I recently went to Comicon for the first time. And I was, like, very excited. Like, these kind of cultural things and these items that kind of have large fan bases and followings around them that I wasn't in any way introduced to.
Andy: Rabid fan bases.
Naomi: Yeah. And so I'm really, like, "Wheat goes on in there?" That's, like, kind of how I feel about it. And so when it comes to something like anime, like, "Let me see what this show is about. What's the vibe? What's happening?" And so that was sort of it. And then because this one sounded so weird because I will say this: I always thought anime was specifically, like, for—it was meant to be sexual, only.
Andy: You thought it was only for perverts.
Naomi: Yeah, I thought it was only porn, basically.
Bobby: Okay.
Naomi: Like, cartoon porn. So of course, I was, like, "No, thank you." But then I was, like, "Netflix wouldn’t have pornography." And so I inherently trusted the brand. And then [laughs], I was, like, high school for gamblers? I was, like, this is insane, let's do it. And that's kind of what started it. And then we literally were, like, "Next episode." We, like, watched the whole first….
Andy: No, we actually had to stop ourselves and limit it to two episodes a night because otherwise, we would have just blown through the entire series. And again, when you're in the mature stages of a relationship, you got to have something to watch all the time. So you have to proportion it out. You can't be greedy.
Bobby: Yeah, you have to ration it. Yeah.
Andy: You do.
Bobby: The last line of the pilot, I wrote it down because I was, like, I love that they just, you know, just tell us exactly what's happening. Someone says, "She's no normal girl; she's a freak. She's a compulsive gambler." I was, like, I like when a show tells me what it is, you know? I'm, like, I have a sense of this show immediately. I've seen the show described as, quote, "deranged", quote, "insane", quote, "bat shit". How would you describe it for the uninitiated?
Andy: I would say, like, delirium. It's the thing you see in the last couple seconds of your life before you expire. It's what flashes across your neurons.
Naomi: I think deranged is the word. And, like, that's kind of what kept me watching. I'll tell you this, too, because didn't we talk about this, Andy? At the time, you know, like, being sober watching that show was the closest I ever felt to being drunk at the time because the show was, like, it was just literally, like, "Where am I? What's happening? What's real?" Like, I felt, like, as close to wasted as I'd felt in years.
Andy: Yeah. There's a handful of things that do that for me. I look for certain shows. Like, there's a lot of British comedies that do that kind of thing for me. I don’t know why we didn't pick this, but Toast of London is also on Netflix. And that's one of those. Like, Matt Berry. Anything Matt Berry is in usually creates that feeling for me. A lot of Adult Swim stuff creates that feeling for me., specifically, like, you know, Space Ghost Coast to Coast, you know. Because I have never done any drugs and I don't really drink. So I got to get my kicks somewhere. I got to get my, like, kind of reality changing experiences through media. So it's stuff like that.
And Kakegurui, I don’t know if it's just, like, the linguistic translation or the cultural translation that makes it insane, or if I was Japanese living in Japan and I watch it, if I would also be, like, 'This is fucking nuts."
Naomi: Right. Right. That's the question with that show. And as we got into more anime, too, I found myself getting more and more curious about Japanese culture because even with Kakegurui my question is, you know, what channel is it on in Japan, do you know what I mean? Like, are we talking Showtime? Is this for children? Like, I yell at a lot of anime. I go, "Is this for children?"
Andy: There's no way Kakegurui is for children because I mean, there's a woman who, like, fetishizes, like, dying.
Naomi: That's true. She gambles with her life.
Andy: She gambles with her life. And it's, like, sexual. Like, she sexually fetishizes it.
Naomi: She's getting thrills. She's getting sexual thrills. What time does Kakegurui come on in Japan? Is this at midnight?
Andy: It's 4:00. It's after DuckTales. If we can explain just a little bit of what makes it so insane? So it's a high school. Ostensibly, nothing else happens at this high school except gambling. There's a caste system.
Naomi: The social hierarchy of the school is determined by gambling winnings. The more money you have, the more you win, the higher your standing. If you lose, if you're in a lot of debt, you become a pet. In essence, like a slave to someone in school. You never see a teacher. You never see the children in a classroom. It's, like, all about gambling.
Andy: Yeah. And the kinds of things they gamble are extremely elaborate. It's not like Blackjack or Poker or anything like that. Or even just, like, betting on a game of Parcheesi or something like that. There are these extremely elaborate setups.
Naomi: That they've made up.
Andy: Yes. And so half of every episode is explaining what the game is in the first place.
[Clip plays]
Bobby: It's really interesting to watch a show that influences your behavior outside of streaming, too. Like, you said that you were suddenly more interested in Japanese culture. After watching this particular anime, it made you want to watch more anime. Like, what else has it influenced you to do or to research or to aspire to visit?
Andy: I mean, I have a terrible gambling problem now. I really do. Naomi's been telling me to get into Gamblers Anonymous.
Bobby: He's constantly in Vegas.
Naomi: Constantly.
Andy: Constantly in Vegas.
Naomi: I was hoping you were going to pay us, Bobby. We're really in debt at this point after all of his addictions.
Bobby: Yeah. I mean, you said that you hate being in LA, but it kind of sounds like you [laughs]…
Andy: I, I go there and I'm, like, trying to get them to make it more complicated. Like, I'm trying to make them play Poker while we're at one of those dunk tanks. And if, before you get to the river, someone hits the thing and you fall into the dunk tank, you lose. There's a lot of rules I'm trying to add. I'll be honest, they're not very receptive. I don't know why. Vegas is famous for, you know, being loose with the rules.
Naomi: For me, though, it has been. I'm serious. Because first of all, once I found Kakegurui, I realized that my preferred anime was the category of high school for blank. And I like an anime set in a high school. I want there to be something extra happening at that high school on another level. It's not just, like, kids going to school. Who cares? I need intense gambling. I need super powers. I need a host club, okay?
And it really got me curious as to—Because I know there's a lot of these high school shows and, you know, Kakegurui is one of them. It's, like, set at a high school for rich kids. It's all, like, rich kids. And so it got me very curious about kind of the class system in Japan and how that seems to be just such a big driver of so many of these stories, even in the cartoons that are, like, a little bit lighter, you know? Like, all the ones I watch, they're kids who, like, they go to, like, a prep school. It's all fancy schools. They're in uniforms and stuff. So then I was, like, wait, so how does that work there?
Andy: Like, give an example: You've got Ouran High School Host Club, which is high school for gigolos.
Naomi: Basically, yes. There's, like, a host club. It's, like a rich, fancy high school. And our main character is a scholarship student. And it's, like, "You're the poor one." Like, literally, they say. And then she accidentally breaks a vase and then she has to work off the debt by being in the host club. And the host club is, like, rich boys who entertain girls. And it's not sex. It's, like, "Come to the host club and have tea with us, ladies."
Andy: So it's, like, Victorian.
Naomi: Yeah, yeah, it's, like, kind of that energy. And I'm, like, "Wait, what?" And then, of course, when you realize that they're all based on these manga that are so popular, so yeah, I just found myself looking at that more and, like, wanting to go to Japan and see what the vibe is. I'm also really trying to be, like, "Okay. How do I get voiceover work in these anime dubs?" That's all I fucking want. They, like, don't seem to have nonwhite people when they're doing just the dubs of everybody, but I'm, like, "Come on."
Andy: No, they do. Bleach has some nonwhite people. Bleach has someone who's half Mexican.
Naomi: Dubbing it, though? I'm saying the actual voice actor.
Andy: I don’t know. Someone fact check this. Who does Chad's voice on Bleach?
Naomi: [Overtalk] We got to find it. Because I don't know. Because I'm, like, literally, get me in this.
Andy: This is not all anime, but I have noticed that, like, when it is a non-white character, it is generally like a 1970's stereotype.
Naomi: Really.
Andy: They have an afro. A very, like, quote, unquote, "jive" kind of thing going on.
Naomi: Really? [Laughs]
Andy: Yeah. But also, there's Blue Exorcist, which is high school for exorcists.
Naomi: Yeah. That's another good one.
Bobby If you had your pick of even shows you made up, if you were, like, on the lookout for your ideal piece of voiceover work for an anime translation, anime dubbing, what would the show be about? High School for what? What really suits you? High School for what?
Naomi: Okay, okay, okay. Like, some shows have already touched on this, but for me, it would be, like, High School for Time Travelers. And so you go to high school.
Bobby: Okay.
Naomi: And, like, in each class you travel to a different period, right? So if you're studying physics or whatever, they, like, go back in time and fucks [SIC] with Isaac Newton, you know what I mean?
Andy: But then someone screws up the time stream…
Naomi: Of course…
Bobby: Yes. I love that.
Naomi: …someone messes up the time stream.
Andy: …and then they have to—Yeah.
Naomi: And then, like, of course, while this is all happening, they're having their, like, high school dramas, you know what I mean? And, like, "Oh, my God, I left my diary in the 1920's. We have to go back and get it." And that would be it for me.
Andy: "And now the flappers know about iPhones."
Naomi: Exactly. Like, how good would that be?
Bobby: And again, the dub is helpful whenever you want to be on your phone. You cannot do the subtitles if you want to be playing Matchington Manor [SIC] [laughter].
Andy: Netflix, if you're listening, contact our reps. Let's get this going.
Naomi: Okay. Well, also, Netflix, while I have your ear—Bobby, I'm sorry, you may have a question, but I'm really going to use this time. I'm going to use my access, you know.
Andy: You're reclaiming your time.
Naomi: I'm reclaiming my time. I am speaking truths of power. Netflix, Netflix, there is an anime called The Disastrous Life of Saiki K about a boy who has a range of psychic abilities, including teleportation, mind reading and mind control, and he just wants to go to high school in peace. He wants to stay under the radar. He's got the energy of, like, a male Daria. You know, like, very deadpan. He kind of hates everyone. I'm into his whole vibe.
Andy: Very Garfield vibe.
Naomi: Yes. But then everyone around him, of course, they're, like, "Saiki, why aren't you hanging out?" And he's, like, "I want to be left alone."
And then the thing about him that's great is that his character's mouth never moves. And so you also kind of wonder, is he sending his thoughts via his mind to other people, or are people just looking at him and talking at him? It's never clear.
But what I need to use this opportunity to say is that season one is dubbed to perfection. Like, the voice acting on it is so funny, it's so good, everyone's got it. Seasons two and three are on Netflix, Bobby, with no dub whatsoever. And I'm livid. It is not the same show without the dub. I almost started a change dot org petition, and then I realized we as a culture have more things to worry about [laughter]. But I need a—Netflix, give me season two and season three of The Disastrous Life of Saiki K dubbed in English with the voice actors from season one. I'm done.
Andy: Can I be honest? I was at a Close the Camps rally, and Naomi came to it with a sign that said, "Dub seasons two and three of Saiki K." And as all of us were chanting, "Close the camps, close the camps," Naomi was saying, "Dub Saiki K, Dub Saiki K." It was really out of place. I thought, honestly, man, you know, you are the love of my life, I did not want to, like, reprimand you, but I did feel like it was out of place.
Naomi: I needed to use as many eyes as I can get on this issue.
Andy: By the way, the idea of a Garfield/Daria crossover. I don't know who owns what characters, but when I was a kid, on NBC, there was always once in a while where they would have a crossover. Like, the Smurfs and all of the other Saturday morning cartoons, there would be, like, one special where they all crossed over into each other.
Bobby: Yeah, Jetsons and The Flintstones, yeah.
Andy: I want to pitch that to Netflix. Whatever cartoons they own, BoJack Horseman, Saiki K, all these characters together.
Naomi: Oh, my God, BoJack in an anime would be so fucking funny. Imagine if BoJack was like Kakegurui.
Andy: Yes, that's what I'm saying, Naomi. I want to see all these characters cross over in one series.
Naomi: [Overtalk] That would be so fucking funny. BoJack would easily sleep with a high school student from a Japanese high school.
Andy: Of course, he would. Of course, he would. Will Arnett, come on, get behind this. Raphael.
Bobby: A horse in recovery visiting a school of gambling addicts in Japan is just a recipe for good television, honestly.
Naomi: It is. It truly is.
Andy: Come on, the characters from Big Mountain and BoJack and Kakegurui all together? You kidding me?
Naomi: Oh, that would be so fun.
Andy: Disenchantment? I mean, come on.
Naomi: Andy waits, he lets the pause go, and then, really, right before you're about to respond, Bobby, he, like, launches into something new. What were you going to say, Bobby?
Bobby: What I was going to say is that you host this podcast about couples and relationships. You've talked about the best-case scenario of watching television with your partner. What are some terrible heartaches you've gone through in the realm of streaming with each other?
Naomi: I can't think of a show, but Bobby, the disaster is when I assume we're going to watch something as a couple and Andrew goes ahead and just starts watching it.
Bobby: Oh-oh.
Andy: Oh, no. Hold on. You want to get into this, Naomi? Because I will gladly get into this. Naomi will watch two-thirds of a TV show and then just be done with it. She won't vocally say this to me, but I'll be waiting for her to finish it. Like Mindhunter season one. She finished Mindhunter season one, I don’t know, a year after I did. Because we were watching it together and then we got up to, like, maybe the eighth or ninth episode, and you just didn't want to finish it for some reason.
Naomi: Because it was like, I was, like, I can't. I just cannot watch him dig this hole. Do you know what I mean? Like, it wasn't that it wasn't good, but I was, like, "I cannot. I've gone on this journey. I am deeply invested. And I don’t like the choices that he is making." And so then I just stop.
Andy: Sure. I can't stand watching characters destroy their lives or the lives of other people. I have a tough time watching that stuff. But there are other things there. And as you've seen in season two, he did not destroy his life.
Naomi: I know he didn't, but I just needed to almost build up my energy, my strength. But you know what it is, too, Bobby? You know what, I love Andy deeply. He's loyal. So Andy will watch a show to the end. I don't just mean the end of the season. He is, like, literally watching that series finale even though he's, like, stopped liking it two years ago.
Andy: Well, it has to really turn me off. I won’t mention shows because I won't have a career, but there are certain shows that I've watched because I thought there was going to be a redemptive arc for the main character. And then by the time I got to season four, it was very obvious that whatever the thought was to provide a redemptive arc for the main character has gone to the wayside and the main character's just going to be an asshole the entire time. And I got sick of it.
Bobby: We know you're talking about Young Sheldon. Just name names [laughter].
Andy: Bob Versus Abishola [SIC] [laughter].
Naomi: Bob Versus Abishola [SIC]? That's definitely not the show.
Andy: Let me pitch this: Bob Versus Abishola. It's an anime. It's voiced by Billy Gardell. Is that his name?
Naomi: I don't know, Andrew. Go ahead, Bobby.
Bobby: What are some things you've watched exclusively where you know, like, in your Sliding Doors timeline that you know you would not have experienced this, like, show or movie if not for the other person in your relationship? Another true, like, success story about, like, love and relationships.
Andy: I'll tell you honestly, it is not Netflix. This is HDTV. House Hunters International. If it wasn't for Naomi, I would have written it off as just some dumb reality show.
Bobby: The best show on television.
Naomi: Thank you.
Andy: It has brought so much sunshine into my life. I haven't found a therapist yet out here, so it has been such a—because the people on it are some of the dumbest, worst creatures on God's green planet.
Bobby: That's why it's so good.
Andy: Yeah.
Naomi: Exactly.
Andy: The ability for us to make fun of them and get that out of our systems, purge our systems of the poison, has been a gift from the heavens. And Naomi has been the vessel.
Naomi: I'm so happy to hear that. What was that movie you and I watched on Netflix one night? It was Mads Mikkelsen.
Andy: Oh, it was like Mads Mikkelsen's John Wick. I don’t remember the name.
Naomi: Yes. It is, like, on Netflix. Like, that's the only place to find it.
Bobby: Oh, yeah, Polar.
Naomi: Yes. And, like, that was one where Andy's, like, "Well, let's try it." Because I tend not to try movies as much. Like, I'll try shows. I can, like, spend 25 minutes on something. But for some reason, movies, I'll be, like, "Ah, this is a life choice." You know what I mean? Like, I'm so not into them. And he's more willing to try them.
So, like, we watched Polar. I just remember saying to you, "I would have never watched this if you had not said let's watch it. And because of you and how you always dog me out for leaving stuff early," I was, like, "I'm going to stay for the whole thing. I'm not going to, you know tear"…
Andy: You were trying to prove something.
Naomi: Yeah. And I was, like, oh, it was, like, so fun and nuts.
Andy: I think that's the thing I've brought into your life. You're the button-down kind of, like, studious woman [laughter], and I have brought absurd nonsense into your life through our TV watching habits.
Naomi: Definitely. I call him a manic pixie dream boy. You know what I mean? He's, like, this, like, perky white boy. He's, like, "Listen to this music." And it really changes me.
Andy: I put headphones on your ears and it's just, like, a weird clarinet and some, like, timpanis [SIC] in the background.
Naomi: Exactly. So yeah, I feel like that's a lot of the shows.
Bobby: Well, this is just so sweet [laughter]. Do you think, in 2019, a relationship where the couple cannot stream things together can last? Like, if you can't stream together, can you be together?
Naomi: I mean…
Andy: If you can't stream together, you can't dream together.
Naomi: Hey, baby. You got to stream it to dream it [laughs].
Bobby: We're all Carrie Bradshaw today.
Naomi: We are all Carrie Bradshaw today. Oh, my God, yes.
Andy: Other couples turn streaming into screaming.
Naomi: That's the third. That's your third, Andy. But, like, I don’t know because I guess…
Bobby: You got it.
Naomi: …I guess other couples do other stuff, do you know what I mean? Like, aren't TV couples. But I also feel like in 2019…
Bobby: What do they do?
Naomi: …with everything there is to watch all the time, I'm, like, how can you not be streaming?
Andy: To be fair…
Naomi: Like, I mean, watching TV and movies.
Andy: We also, like, go on vacations together and we go to pumpkin patches and other things.
Naomi: No, no, no. We are going to a singular pumpkin patch. Do not lead people to believe this is a regular part of our lifestyle.
Andy: We go out to dinner. We do a lot…
Naomi: We eat a lot.
Andy: We do lots of other things together. I don't want to make it sound like, you know, 24 hours a day we're just sitting in front of a TV like that one Portlandia sketch with Battlestar Galactica.
Naomi: Not familiar.
Andy: The right people will get the reference.
Bobby: Not familiar.
Naomi: I feel like, I don't know, I think you got to have at least a couple shows, you know? Not all of them because we certainly don't watch everything together. But it does feel like it's a thing because I find that watching a show or a movie is a way to be close without the pressure to entertain your partner, you know? Which is very, I think, crucial. Like, let's be together. It's also a shared experience because you get to watch whatever thing it is, and then of course, you talk about it after. So you really buy yourself a future conversation, which is crucial to keeping any love interesting.
Bobby: Every streaming choice leads to a conversation.
Naomi: Yes.
Bobby: And every conversation makes your relationship a little stronger.
Naomi: Yes.
Andy: Yes.
Bobby: Wow, we're really getting to the heart of some things today. Wow. All because of Kakegurui.
Andy: If Netflix's PR division uses any of that, we expect recompence.
Naomi: Okay. Literally, if I see "Stream It To Dream It" on any piece of merchandising, so help me God, I am calling my legal team. I don’t have a legal team.
Bobby: You are going to drive down Sunset Boulevard and all the billboards are going to, word by word, way, "Stream It To Dream It," across, like, a quarter-mile stretch.
I think we are reaching the end of our conversation. But before we end this, I want you two to just, like, give one final pitch to the audience about this show. Convince them to watch it as succinctly as possible.
Naomi: [Laughs] Okay. A succinct pitch for Kakegurui. Okay. Do you—Do you—Do you—Okay. Do you know how when you get sick and you get a fever and things feel really weird and loopy? Would you like that feeling without actually being sick? Watch Kakegurui.
Andy: You know that liminal feeling between sleep and awake? That's Kakegurui.
Naomi: Yeah. That's my pitch. That's my pitch. Do you want to feel loopy? Do you want to learn complicated rules to games that you could never play? Watch Kakegurui. It is so funny. And as you said, you quoted the last line in the pilot. Like, even the dialog is, like, very tongue in cheek and very direct. Like, "We know this is nuts and we're having fun with it." So I don’t think it's one of those where I'm, like—I'm, like, "No, they know they're loopy."
Andy: Yeah. Do you want to feel whatever the opposite of horny is?
[Music plays]
Bobby: Hm-hmm [affirmative].
Naomi: Oh. I do every day [laughter].
Bobby: And…
Naomi: We're doing great.
Bobby: …that's, I think, where we're going to end. I'll let you two [laughter] hash this out in the pumpkin patch. Thanks for coming on, Naomi and Andy. That was a lot of fun. And you can all watch Kakegurui on Netflix right now. You can also subscribe to Couples Therapy wherever you get your podcasts. And we will see you next week with our episode.
[Outro music]