This week, host Bobby Finger welcomes writer, editor, and author of Basic WitchesJaya Saxena (@jayasax) along with writer and creator of the weekly newsletter High DramaLouis Peitzman (@louispeitzman) to chat about the second half of the very witchy (and surprisingly demonic) Chilling Adventures of Sabrina, the shockingly hypnotic docu-soap Selling Sunset, what the name "Chrishell" stands for, why Our Planet is both essential and tough to watch, and (weirdly) our favorite A) songs from Disney's Hercules, and B) lines from The Birdcage. Skip segments you'd like to keep spoiler-free with these handy time codes: Our Planet: 5:45 - 8:20 Chilling Adventures of Sabrina: 11:08 - 22:50 Selling Sunset: 22:50 - 36:05 The OA: 36:15 - 39:30 Call 754-CALL-BOB and share your current obsessions, and we may discuss it on a future episode! Once again, it's 754-CALL-BOB.
This week, host Bobby Finger welcomes writer, editor, and author of Basic WitchesJaya Saxena (@jayasax) along with writer and creator of the weekly newsletter High DramaLouis Peitzman (@louispeitzman) to chat about the second half of the very witchy (and surprisingly demonic) Chilling Adventures of Sabrina, the shockingly hypnotic docu-soap Selling Sunset, what the name "Chrishell" stands for, why Our Planet is both essential and tough to watch, and (weirdly) our favorite A) songs from Disney's Hercules, and B) lines from The Birdcage.
Skip segments you'd like to keep spoiler-free with these handy time codes:
Our Planet: 5:45 - 8:20
Chilling Adventures of Sabrina: 11:08 - 22:50
Selling Sunset: 22:50 - 36:05
The OA: 36:15 - 39:30
Call 754-CALL-BOB and share your current obsessions, and we may discuss it on a future episode!
Once again, it's 754-CALL-BOB.
[Music]
Bobby: Welcome to, I'm Obsessed With This, the Netflix podcast about the shows and films everyone seems to be talking about and why. As usual, we will be having spoiler-filled discussion on all titles, so please check the show notes for timestamps in case you want to avoid them. I'm your host, Bobby Finger, and I am joined today by Jaya Saxena, writer, editor and author of Basic Witches How to Summon Success, Banish Drama and Raise Hell With Your Coven, and Louis Peitzman, writer and creator of the weekly newsletter High Drama, which covers theater, housewives, and horror. Hello, you two.
Jaya: Hello.
Louis: Hi.
Bobby: How's it going?
Louis: Super, it's warming up outside.
Jaya: Good.
Bobby: It's warming up.
Jaya: Yeah.
Bobby: Every time I start one of these episodes, I'm like, it's a blisteringly cold day and today it's not.
Jaya: It's warm.
Louis: It's warm.
Jaya: I'm getting allergies.
Bobby: It's horrible, yeah, allergies and starting to sweat more, which is really, you know, a joy for everyone.
Louis: And you're drinking cold beverages instead of hot java, like people often have.
Jaya: Cold—
Bobby: As if I would ever drink a warm beverage.
Jaya: Ah, I should have gotten a java to be on brand, but . . .
Bobby: So, we're here to talk about—what are we here to talk about? Chilling Adventures of Sabrina, Selling Sunset, A little Our Planet chat, maybe a little OA chat. And then, who knows? It's sort of a grab bag—it's a free-for-all.
Louis: Great.
Jaya: So many good . . .
Bobby: What's the last thing you watched that you loved? Not counting your homework assignments. Louis, start with you?
Louis: Oh, okay, great. I had to think about it. Well, because the last thing that I watched that I loved was Disney's Hercules which is just, you know, one of those Netflix titles that I—
Bobby: Zero to hero.
Jaya: Yeah.
Louis: . . . well, that I could fall asleep—I watch a lot of kids' movies before I go to bed.
Jaya: Hm-hmm. [affirmative]
Louis: Like, I put them on and then I fall asleep.
Bobby: Do you put the sleep timer on?
Louis: No, I just let it play forever.
Bobby: You let it go?
Louis: I mean, I've done all the damage I can to my eyes and brain, so, but I also have been re-watching Nailed It because it just brings me comfort.
Bobby: Nicole?
Louis: Yes, I mean, I just, I watch it and it makes me feel better about all of my accomplishments—which are small, but, also, you know, people on Nailed It, like, don't really have a lot of talent and they get praised for pulling it together somehow and that's like all I want is a very low bar, and to hit that.
Bobby: Hm-hmm. [affirmative] People on Nailed It don't even follow directions. That's one of the most shocking things about Nailed It.
Jaya: Yeah.
Louis: They don't—but, also, it's like I know that I would be so much worse than they are. Like, as bad as they are, I'm like, I would be the person who couldn't even finish.
Bobby: Hm-hmm. [affirmative]
Louis: And it makes me think of like when they do back-to-back chef on Bon Appétit YouTube Channel—
Bobby: Oh, yeah.
Louis: . . . and I'm always like they say they have no cooking skills, but I wouldn't even know where to begin. I'd have to—
Bobby: They let [unintelligible 0:02:34.4] on there.
Louis: . . . Well . . .
Bobby: He has cooking skills.
Louis: I'm sure he does, but, I'm like—see, I would just be slicing a finger off and be like, was that part of it? I don't know. Where to go from here?
Bobby: What's your favorite Hercules song? I have a favorite.
Louis: Probably, I Won't Say I'm in Love.
Bobby: Okay.
Louis: Wait—what's that? Bad? A bad answer?
Bobby: No, I don't think it's a bad answer—there are no bad answers when it comes to Disney's Hercules.
Louis: I was feeling very—I was already feeling very judged.
Bobby: I just wanted to, you know, let you protect yourself.
Louis: Wait, what's yours?
Bobby: Go the Distance.
Louis: Oh, I mean—
Bobby: Reprise.
Louis: Oh, okay.
Bobby: Reprise. Okay, what did you watch that wasn't Disney's Hercules?
Jaya: I recently re-watched The Birdcage.
Bobby: Oh, yes.
Jaya: And I just—I still think it's a classic. I mean, obviously, there are things about it that are dated now, but I'm just like, I love it. All of these performances. I feel like I know Nathan Lane gets, like, a ton of the credit because obviously he's incredible but I think Robin Williams—like, Robin Williams' body language in that movie is just amazing.
Bobby: Hm-hmm. [affirmative]
Jaya: Forever being mad at the son for being, like, such an asshole.
Louis: The worst. He's so—
Bobby: Fifty years old.
Louis: He's so horrible.
Jaya: He's the worst.
Bobby: So bad.
Jaya: And I'm just, like, how were you raised by like two gay men—
Bobby: It's always just like—
Jaya: . . . and you're still like this?
Bobby: Kind of awkward.
Jaya: Yeah.
Bobby: He's such an asshole.
Jaya: He's such an asshole.
Louis: He's horrible.
Bobby: Also, and then he and Calista Flockhart are supposed to be 19, 20 years old?
Louis/Jaya: Right.
Louis: He's a little older. She's like—
Bobby: Twenty-one.
Jaya: She's like 18 and I think he's 20.
Louis: . . . no, she's—yeah she is—
Jaya: . . . and I think she's 20.
Louis: And they've been, like, doing it since she was, what, 16, 17? It's very unsettling.
Bobby: It's awful.
Jaya: It's like you know they're getting divorced immediately.
Bobby: In situations like that, I don't know why movies don't just age them up? Like, the movie would still work if they were 25, you know?
Jaya: Right, the movie would still be fine even if it was like he was graduating college.
Bobby: Yeah.
Jaya: And, you know, if she were—
Bobby: Just starting.
Jaya: . . . 21 and he was 23 or something. It's still young but it's like—
Bobby: Yeah, I don't know what the rationale—
Jaya: . . . he doesn't need to be 18.
Bobby: Calista Flockhart. And then she has her like childish haircut and little mannerisms and it's like—
Jaya: Yeah.
Bobby: . . . Calista, you're 32. Like, I know what's happening here. She's always been the same age. Calista Flockhart remains like in her early 30s.
Louis: Hm-hmm. [affirmative]
Jaya: Yeah.
Louis: I think a lot about—I just watched it again recently, too, and like for the, you know, five-thousandths time, and I was thinking about how the Hank Azaria character is something that is one of those dated things that you mentioned that I was, like, would never—
Jaya: Yeah.
Louis: . . . would not fly now. Like if we're mad about Apou [phonetic 0:04:48.0], we probably should be mad about—
Jaya: Right.
Bobby: Agador Spartacus.
Louis/Jaya: Yes.
Louis: But also, he gets the best lines.
Jaya: I love him.
Bobby: Hm-hmm. [affirmative] "Come on, Gloria." I think my favorite movie—my favorite line in the movie is, "Come on, Gloria." Or—
Jaya: I think I regularly say, around the house, "I do not wear shoes because they make me fall down." And, it's just such an amazing, also, like physical gag of him putting on shoes and then trying to open the door.
Bobby: Falling down.
Jaya: And, just fully not knowing how to walk.
Bobby: Now I'm trying to think of all the other Agador lines I love and I—maybe number one is, when he's talking about how, like, his father was a shaman, his mother was a high priestess, and then Robin Williams is like, "well then why did they move to New Jersey?" And he goes, "I don't know, they're so stupid." "They're so stupid." Oh, well . . . so, we're going to end the podcast here and just watch The Birdcage together.
Jaya: Yeah, do it again.
Louis: Can we?
Bobby: My answer to this question—I've already said Go the Distance, reprise—I, too, watched Birdcage in the past six months for sure—I've been watching Our Planet, I have like two episodes left. It's so sad. Have either of you watched it?
Louis: No, but it's—
Bobby: It's beautiful.
Louis: But, it's like, you know, your standard Internet documentary, but with the reminder that everything's dying.
Bobby: Yeah.
Louis: And we're going to die soon.
Jaya: Right.
Bobby: Which Planet Earth didn't really have. Planet Earth made suggestions or allusions to the fact that, like, things aren't that great, buddy, but—
Jaya: And they had extras at the end that was like, oh, how we filmed this and stuff—
Bobby: Yeah.
Jaya: . . . that, like, I think was more explicit about that. But this one's—
Bobby: Yeah. But the documentary itself sort of skirted the issue and this is fully what it's about. It's not the most optimistic look at things—
Jaya: Hm-hmm. [affirmative]
Bobby: . . . but it's still, like, gorgeous. It's like look at this like gorgeous mating ritual between these two beautiful birds and then it's like, by the way, their habitat is on the outs. Good luck.
Jaya: Yep.
Louis: I feel like nature documentaries are going to get sadder and sadder and bleaker and bleaker and that eventually we're going to have just—it will be a Sarah McLachlan song and then just a montage of all the animals that are extinct now.
Bobby: Yeah.
Louis: Like, let's basically—
Bobby: Our Planet II. Maybe Our Planet III.
Louis [overlapping/unintelligible 0:06:43.8]
Jaya: Yeah.
Louis: If we make it to Our Planet III, I mean, that's pretty optimistic.
Bobby: Our Planet II—if this one took like four, five years, Our Planet II seems likely.
Louis/Jaya: Yeah.
Bobby: You know? Our Planet III.
Louis: We'll see.
Bobby: Our Planet III they might have to rush out of production—and they're like, "we've got six months, call Sarah in. Have her do—
Jaya: Yeah.
Bobby: . . . have her do a reimaging of Mirror Ball in its entirety and then let's just—
Jaya: No, but it's like, the commercial with all the sad dogs looking at you—
Bobby: . . . yeah, the massive eye.
Jaya: . . . except it's sad every single animal on earth.
Bobby: There's like—I mean, Our Planet is wonderful and everyone listening should absolutely watch it just because it takes you to the place that Planet Earth takes you.
Jaya: Yeah.
Bobby: Like, it's just like beautiful nature documentaries. But the scene that best describes how bleak this documentary is, involves these walruses who need to get to water but they're trapped on land, and they fling themselves off cliffs, desperately trying to get back in the water.
Jaya/Louis: Ohhh, oh my God . . .
Bobby: And they don't always make it.
Louis: Do they make it?
Bobby: No.
Louis: Ohhh, okay.
Jaya: Oh, no.
Bobby: Until it's like, I'm going to turn it off when that happens and—
Louis: There's like—
Bobby: . . . then just assume that they all made it.
Jaya: Assume that they all . . .
Bobby: But then, Louis, there's cute penguins and there's cute, like, there's these cute fish in coral reefs that aren't bleached, you know . . .
Louis: Right.
Bobby: Trying to eat some beautiful sea urchins. Like, a lot of it is, you know, 80 percent—
solid 80 percent—is like, I love the world.
Louis: It's just a show that I know that I would watch like at 1:00 a.m. Obviously, completely sober, and I feel like it would send me into an existential crisis.
Jaya: Yeah.
Louis: Which I'm, you know, happens regardless but a really bad one.
Bobby: But, you know what? It's an existential crisis that we all need to have, you know?
Louis: You're right. You're right.
Jaya: Yeah.
Louis: I'm convinced I now believe in climate change. I was not so sure . . .
Bobby: You needed David Attenborough to tell you.
Louis: I need him to tell me everything. He has a very soothing voice.
Bobby: The other thing I wanted to mention is that Netflix now knows me so well that every time I open it up, it's like, watch Sisterhood of the Traveling Pants I and II. And I'm like, I will, table this.
Louis: I will say, just really quickly, I got an Oculus Go which is a, you know—
Bobby: What is—oh—
Louis: The VR headset. Because I—
Bobby: Yeah? What can you watch on that? Movies?
Louis: . . . because I'm unemployed and do things like that, impulse buy things that are expensive—but you can watch—there's a Netflix app, right? And, so, you put it on and you're sitting in like a living room at like a mountain lodge and like you can see out the window and you're watching on a big screen T.V. and, like, for me—someone who lives in a studio apartment with no T.V.—it's like a dream.
Bobby: Wait. It makes it seem like you are in—
Louis: You're in—you're in someone else's home and you're watching on the big screen T.V.
Bobby: Does it sort of . . .? I'm like speechless.
Louis: I should have brought it and we could have all watched together.
Bobby: Wait—does the screen sort of mimic the feel of an actual big screen T.V.?
Louis: For sure. Yes.
Bobby: Does it feel like you're watching—
Louis: Yes, there are other apps for, you know, other streaming services that I won't mention—they have like a movie theater, where you're watching in a movie theater and it's crazy because you logically know you are like watching on a tiny screen but you can look around—
Bobby: Our brains are stupid.
Jaya: Yeah.
Louis: Our brains are dumb as hell and you can look around and see this entire—this giant screen, but, yeah, the Netflix one is great. The only problem is that, the whole thing—the charge lasts like two hours so you have to—
Bobby: Can you plug yourself in?
Louis: No, because it heats up and I've been told it can explode in your face. And, like, of all the things that could explode in your face, like, between the Juul and my Oculus one of them is going to explode and I'm hoping it's like—
Jaya: This is why we're not going to get—
Louis: . . . my mouth not my eyes.
Jaya: . . . an Our Planet II.
Bobby: Right.
Jaya: Everyone's face is going to explode with something before that.
Bobby: Everyone's charging their devices, it's getting—
Louis: But worse—
Bobby: . . . like these chemicals all over the place.
Louis: But, it's worth it because I get to pretend I have a big screen in my apartment and I definitely don't.
Bobby: That's amazing.
Louis: And couch—I don't have a couch either, so there's a lot going on.
Jaya: That is wild.
Louis: The Netflix app on Oculus.
Bobby: Can you choose the living room, or—
Louis: No—
Bobby: . . . does it have to be this, like, alpine ski lodge?
Louis: . . . there are not. You can—you can change the lighting.
Bobby: Okay.
Louis: But some of the apps, you can change the weather outside. It's so weird.
Bobby: Ohhh.
Jaya: Oh my God.
Louis: It's very strange.
Bobby: I love this.
Louis: And obviously worth the money that I shouldn't have spent on it, so shout out to the Netflix app on Oculus.
Bobby: I mean it's very—I mean, what you are describing is so dystopian. I don't have a couch or a T.V. but I buy this thing and it makes me feel like I do—
Jaya: Yeah, it's just this ready player one, right?
Bobby: . . . like way—exactly.
Louis: Well, yeah, I mean, I was reading reviews and people were like, in the future we won't even need movie theaters, we could all just watch stuff by ourselves, virtually, in the movie theater. And I was like, this is so dark and you don't even realize how dark it is, and also, I do get creeped out when I'm watching scary movies on it because I'm always worried I'm going to turn and someone is going to be sitting next to me.
Bobby: Hm-hmm. [affirmative] or you'll take off the goggles and someone will be there.
Jaya: Someone's looking at you.
Louis: That's more realistic.
Bobby: But enough about the real world. Let's move onto a fantasy world. Let's move onto Chilling Adventures of Sabrina.
Jaya: Yes.
Bobby: Jaya, you watched it.
Jaya: Yes.
Bobby: You're a witch expert. Explain—tell the audience why you know so much about witches?
Jaya: Oh, well, because I was, like, I don't know, a goth pre-teen. That's sort of how it happened. Yeah, I'm the author of Basic Witches so it's something that has always interested me. I definitely practice, you know, witchy things in my life. One of the main interesting things to me about this show is that I think the modern understanding of witchcraft is that there is not one strict practice of it. You know, it's a very individualized spirituality and the people who call themselves witches do a million different things so the fact that she is a witch in this one, like, basically Satan worshiping extremely heteronormative cult—
Bobby: Hm-hmm. [affirmative]
Jaya: . . . is, I think, you know, the backlash that this show has gotten from a lot of witches has been a lot because of that. It's like, whoa, you're out here eating babies and there is the literal devil that is a goat with huge horns walking on his hindlegs coming into things—
Bobby: Yeah.
Jaya: . . . it's like, okay, you took this literally in a way that not a lot of people—and I mean there is that sort of practice out there but, yeah, they just went with one very specific thing.
Bobby: That was the most surprising thing to me about it, like when I started the first—
Jaya: Yeah.
Bobby: . . . the first half of the season, I was like, oh, this is the devil.
Jaya: Yeah.
Bobby: I didn't realize that.
Jaya: Yeah.
Bobby: Especially, like, this has nothing—Melissa Joan Hart would be out of her mind in this universe.
Jaya: Yeah, exactly.
Bobby: She would have no idea what's going on. Caroline Rhea here, like, who could imagine Caroline?
Jaya: This would not work and it's like this is the devil, this is—Lillith is in there. It's like, extremely biblical, devil witchcraft sort of stuff which is just, yeah—I watched the whole show and I still don't know if it's good or if I like it.
Bobby: Okay.
Jaya: I kept watching and I kept being interested but then people asked me, did you like it? I'm like, no clue.
Louis: Don't you—I feel like that's such a common thing with T.V.
Jaya: Yeah.
Louis: And I think a lot of it is that there's just so much and I just watch so much. It's kind of how like during theater season I see a show every night and it all kind of blurs together and it's hard for me to figure out, like, what my favorites were—like what I really loved—
Jaya: Right.
Louis: . . . because you're just taking in so much.
Jaya: Yeah.
Louis: And you're binging so much Sabrina at once.
Jaya: Yeah, absolutely.
Bobby: And everyone is so—and the other thing about "peak" T.V. is that there's so much of it but everyone's really good at it now. So, everyone involved—so it's like your production team, your cast, like, every show looks great. Like, if you put in the time you will have a show that looks great, that has a great cast in it and that is well-structured to the point where you can—we talked about this a few weeks ago where I watched all of Umbrella Academy and I don't really think I liked it much, but—
Jaya: You watched it, yeah.
Bobby: I kept going because I was, like, this has a structure that is appealing to me.
Jaya: Yeah.
Bobby: And, so, it's like you just keep going and then the ending fortunately was pretty good and you're like, okay—
Jaya: Oh, cool.
Bobby: . . . and then if the ending works, then you kind of—
Jaya: Retroactively—
Bobby: . . . feel okay—
Jaya: Yeah.
Bobby: . . . dealing with the rest of it. Do you think Kiernan Shipka makes a convincing witch?
Jaya: I do. I think she's really good at it. I think she does get the good Sabrina mentality of, like, being a little bit conflicted—you know, definitely different from Melissa Joan Hart but I like the character. It's like she's, you know, she's sort of hard-headed, she keeps trying to figure things out on her own and fight against people and then sort of not realizing the enormity of what she might be up against.
Bobby: Hm-hmm. [affirmative]
Jaya: All her outfits are really cute.
Louis: They are very cute.
Jaya: A very important aspect of this show is that everyone looks cute. Yeah, no, I think she's definitely convincing.
Bobby: Okay.
Jaya: It's such a funny world. Like, the whole town and everything that they've set up in there it's like—
Bobby: Well, yeah, that's what's interesting to me about it. It's that this is like technically in the Archie universe—
Jaya: Right.
Bobby: . . . so, you've got this like actual show about—
Louis: The Archie cinematic universe.
Jaya: Yeah.
Bobby: . . . the Archie cinematic universe. This show about literal Satan.
Jaya: Literal Satan.
Bobby: In the same universe where, you know, Archie got hot.
Jaya: And, if anything, I would love for this show to be more horny in a way that Riverdale is—
Bobby/Louis: Yes. Hm-hmm. [affirmative]
Bobby: It could definitely be hornier, that's true. I—
Jaya: I think I want a good combination of the two shows. I think I want the slight absurd horniness of Riverdale.
Bobby/Louis: Hm-hmm. [affirmative]
Jaya: But I do appreciate the darkness and some of the stuff that they're going for in Sabrina.
Bobby: I don't think it becoming more like Riverdale is out of the question.
Jaya: Right.
Bobby: I feel like you have to introduce this character as this like independent, strong—give Kiernan Shipka a chance to shine and let's introduce you to what this Sabrina is because it is dark and it is sort of fucked up and then, now that she's established, in Season two it can get a little hornier.
Louis: I do think, also, that like it's—Riverdale has become—are you—do either of you watch Riverdale?
Bobby: I stopped Riverdale.
Jaya: Yeah.
Louis: You still watch it? Like, Riverdale has become so much darker and weirder, and, I mean, Archie got attacked by a bear and then a bunch of nuns committed suicide—there was a mass suicide of fake nuns and also they're—
Jaya: Don't worry, not real nuns.
Bobby: Okay, okay, not real nuns.
Louis: . . . it is reaching heights of absurdity that I can't quite articulate, but I think the selling point for me with Sabrina was that, oh, it's like this darker version of Riverdale but Riverdale, I think, has actually become at least as dark as Sabrina. I mean, there's not as much like sacrifice of humans but it's pretty much there and so I don't know—I don't see them as much of a distinction anymore.
Jaya: Yeah, that's true. I think the weird thing, too, about Sabrina is like right now she's still living in this back and forth between her normal-person school and the witch school that she goes to.
Bobby: Right.
Jaya: And, so, it seems like they've really had to stretch why she is still involved in the real world or like why she decided to go to the witch school full time. But, they still have these plot lines with her normal friends which is cool but then it's like it feels like a totally different show now—like over here, with what Harvey is doing, and, yeah . . .
Bobby: It's hard to find that balance.
Louis: It's like Harry Potter. But I mean—
Bobby: Harry Potter was—stayed at Hogwarts for his time, like he wasn't going back and forth on the weekends, you know what I'm saying?
Jaya: But we, yeah, it's like Harry Potter world but then there was still a chapter of like we knew what Dursley was doing.
Louis: But, it's so hard to find that balance with teen shows that are supernatural, like any sort of genre show because it's like—or even something like Riverdale—not to keep harping on Riverdale, but we're in the same universe—but, right after Archie got attacked by a bear and died and then came—he wasn't fully dead—but he like basically died, he was mostly dead—then in the next episode—literally in the next episode—he's like, "oh my God I forgot the SATs." And that's a big plot point—he has to study for the SATs and you're like, how do you care about this? And, you know, Buffy always struggled with that too, it's like how do you do the real life problems and also the supernatural which is often a metaphor but like how do you find that balance? Doesn't it feel like, why do we care about school?
Jaya: Yeah, and I think the weird thing is like having physically the two locations of her needing to be in the non-witch school and the witch school wherever it is—a magic place out by the train track. But, then, yeah, there was like an episode where she brings her witch boyfriend to normal school prom.
Bobby: Right.
Jaya: And, you're just like, I mean, I guess, yeah.
Bobby: I was actually going to make the comparison to Buffy because I never watched that and, in my mind and what I know about Buffy, I was like, this show has more in common with Buffy than it does with the original Sabrina—than anything, really.
Jaya: Yeah, I think there's a lot of it that definitely feels like Buffy. I think, you know, Buffy gets to be more grounded in the "real world" because, right, it's like taking place at the school, her family is like normal rather than her family also being a family—
Bobby: Are witches.
Jaya: . . . of like vampire hunters that she needs to like choose to go live amongst. So, I think there's more natural expectation whereas if she was sent to vampire hunter school and didn't have to take the SATs, then it's like well, yeah, you can just go do that.
Bobby: Buffy did not do well on her SATs.
Jaya: No.
Bobby: But better than expected—I think that there's a lot of thematic similarities. I think the kind of choice between trying to be a normal teenage girl and having these huge, impossible to conceive of, like, obligations to some sort of, you know, not higher power, some sort of, whatever—
Louis: Higher purpose.
Jaya: Higher purpose.
Bobby: . . . higher, yes, some sort of destiny thing happening.
Jaya: Literally, the devil.
Bobby: Right, the devil.
Louis: The devil, the watchers, like there's, you know, similarities there. Also, Sabrina was kind of toying with the monster of the week thing which I think is really hard for shows now because, especially shows on Netflix which you're meant to watch like—
Jaya: In binging sessions.
Louis: . . . in binging form. You're kind of, like, they're much more serialized, they're kind of like longer movies, cut into chunks. And, so, it was a little bit jarring in Sabrina when they had a monster of the week episode with the demon that made them have nightmares—like the—was it a demon, or?
Jaya: Yeah.
Louis: . . . there was a—it was a very classic, like, every genre show has done this episode.
Jaya: Yeah, it was like a sleep demon.
Bobby: Okay, yeah.
Louis: Right. And it was like Buffy had that episode—two of them—which, but I thought it, like, it was fun and it made me think of Buffy, I just think it's hard to find that balance between serialized story telling and those episodic sort of stand-alone episodes.
Jaya: Yeah, absolutely.
Louis: Like, I think there is a happy medium and I think serialized story telling is great—I wish that more show writers didn't treat their shows like a movie that has like—just has cuts every, you know, 45 minutes to an hour.
Jaya: But, right—it's like there's still a difference of, like, this is a show and there are things that you can do with a T.V. show that you can't do with a movie and, it's like, to highlight those sorts of things.
Bobby: So, I want to ask you as a witch expert, because I think it's interesting—a lot of, like, you know, obviously there are a lot of stories about witches who are persecuted but are actual witches and, like, you know, what we think about, like the Salem witch trials, like, they probably weren't witches—they probably were women who were just, you know, murdered and, so, is there any sort of like contention—like, is that an issue for people to tell the stories that way? That's usually the dominant story now.
Jaya: I think for me personally, I think those two things combine a lot, right? It's like how much is which? An identity that you take on yourself and how much of it is something that you were accused of being but also, like, what you're accused of being is some—like, a woman who doesn't follow any of the rules that society has laid out for you. So, I think, like regardless of whether the women in Salem or anywhere else were actually practicing witchcraft—and there was like one or two where they were like, oh, we found, you know, a spell sort of thing that you were doing and were upset about that—to me, like, those two things feel very close still because it's like, well you were still, I don't know, maybe a woman who was single and not Christian. And that's like, you know—
Bobby: That's enough.
Jaya: . . . yeah, that's enough.
Louis: I guess it would be pretty boring if all the witch shows are like, they're not really witches, people just think they are.
Jaya: People were just—yeah, exactly. Sabrina obviously is on the far end of that—
Bobby: Sure, yeah. They're literal devil worshipers.
Jaya: . . . she wrote her name in blood into the book of the devil, and . . .
Louis: Who among us . . . do you think the show would have worked if Salem were still a talking cat, perfectly, with the same voice, for me. From the original?
Bobby: I think there's a way to make it work.
Louis: I think about this all the time and I'm like, I kind of want to see that version of the show even though it would be a total mess.
Jaya: Of Salem?
Louis: I just want to see what that looks like.
Bobby: He could just like punctuate things every now and then. He wouldn't have to be as consistent as he was in the original sitcom.
Louis: Right.
Bobby: But, I feel like there's a way to make the talking cat work. Let's move on to another show that's set in the fantasy world.
Louis: Oh my God I'm so ready.
Bobby: Los Angeles, but specifically The Hills.
Louis: The Hills? Yeah.
Bobby: Specifically, Sunset Boulevard.
Louis: They're by like Sunset Plaza.
Bobby: Okay.
Louis: That's usually where they keep showing.
Bobby: Let's just call the fantasy world their office—Louis, you are from Los Angeles.
Louis: Yes.
Bobby: I would say born and raised, that's true—
Louis: Born and raised. You can't be from Los Angeles and not say you're born and raised there—to assert yourself comfortably.
Bobby: When you watch it, do you get homesick? Or do you watch—
Louis: Oh my gosh—
Bobby: . . . and you feel like, I'm so glad I'm away from that.
Louis: . . . no, I do not. I'm like, thank God I left Los Angeles. No, I think that it, you know, I watch a lot of reality T.V. and much of it is set in Los Angeles and it very rarely captures an experience that I understand. I think that like Selling Sunset is way more like The Hills or like Beverly Hills Housewives in a way. The only show that's actually captured L.A. in a way that I understand is Vanderpump Rules because they talk about how long commutes are to get to, like, when you need to get to the west side—but I digress—I understand what it's doing and I think it captures a version of L.A. that is not something that I personally know but that makes sense to me on a T.V. show.
Bobby: So, Selling Sunset is a docu-soap?
Louis: I think so.
Bobby: I think that's the genre that we're using.
Louis: Yes.
Bobby: And it follows a real estate firm called The Oppenheim Group run by two twins.
Louis: It's about a really handsome Frenchman named Romain and—the people surrounding him—so, I guess—
Bobby: Oh my gosh.
Louis: . . . it's technically not what it's about but that's how I chose to interpret the show.
Bobby: Romain is the boyfriend of Mary.
Louis: Mary.
Bobby: One of the agents.
Louis: Yes. Mary is—there's an age difference which I am—
Bobby: Thirty-seven.
Louis: She's—I thought she was 38.
Bobby: Thirty-eight? Oh, she just turned 38.
Louis: She's 38 now, yeah.
Bobby: She just turned 38.
Jaya: Wait, and how old is Romain?
Bobby: Twenty-five.
Louis: Twenty-five—which—
Jaya: Ohhhhhhh.
Bobby: He's 25. He's a hunk and she has a kid and he doesn't want kids for 10 years and she's like, well, my kid's already like 12.
Louis: But, we don't really know—there's a language barrier because he's very French and we're like—he maybe misspoke, maybe—I'm trying to be on his side here. We don't know exactly what he wants.
Bobby: Romain could kill someone and you'd be like, well, we don't really know that.
Louis: We don't really know. We don't really know. There are mitigating circumstances. I mean, I just think that he's such a cutie and when you're watching a show like that, you're allowed to be really shallow. He is my star of the show.
Bobby: It's—you've got the two guys who own the Oppenheim Group.
Louis/Bobby: These two twins.
Louis: These two twins who are honestly so forgettable. I don't know which one is which.
Bobby: Bald meathead twins. I don't even remember their names.
Louis: And, like—
Bobby: Jason—I wrote them down—Brett and Jason. Brett and Jason.
Jaya: Wait—okay it's twins and it's not the Property Brothers?
Bobby: Not the Property Brothers? They're new twins.
Jaya: Is there a correlation of twins to real estate that we need to investigate?
Louis: I think we do, actually.
Bobby: Maybe but Property Brothers, though, are really funny because the Property Brothers just—the only reason they landed on real estate—which I feel is true for most people in real estate—the only reason they landed in real estate is because the other stuff they tried, failed—
Jaya: They were child actors at some point too, right?
Bobby: . . . and so you just sort of end up there. They wanted to be magicians. They were actors. They were singers.
Louis: That's so funny.
Bobby: And, so it's like, whenever that doesn't work and you're pretty good looking, you can go into real estate because people want to talk to a good looking person when they buy a house.
Louis: Right.
Jaya: That's true.
Bobby: So, it's these women—they all work at the Oppenheim Group, they all sell these houses and, it's like, you know, they're selling this $8 million dollar house so when it shows you the exterior and then some, like, glamour shots of the inside, it's like, $8.7 million, commission $163,000.00. So, it's like—
Louis: Commissions are nuts.
Bobby: The commissions are nuts but I'm also sort of like they're only getting a percentage of that commission because the rest of that commission is going to the Oppenheim Group. So, it's like—
Louis: When a commission is though, a million—like, one of them was over a million dollars.
Bobby: Yeah, but I feel like it must be at least 50/50 and they probably get maybe even less.
Louis: Yeah, for sure.
Bobby: Still, it's a lot—it's a ton of money.
Louis: So, but the basic—like the entry point of the show is this character who is a real person, allegedly—
Bobby: Chrishell.
Louis: Chrishell Hartley, who announces herself as being married to Justin Hartley—you've probably heard of him?
Jaya: Yeah.
Bobby: He's on This is Us.
Louis: He's on This is Us, which is a popular show. So, it's like, you know, a lot of reality shows, you have a newcomer come in and they're like innocent and sweet and like this—these horrible vipers that she's thrown into—who try really hard to be reality show villains and—
Bobby: It doesn't quite work.
Louis: It doesn't quite work but it's so fun to watch because, again, as someone who watches so much reality T.V., you know who's performing and who's trying to get more screen time and just trying to, like, stir shit up. But the drama is so light and like forgettable—they're not really fighting, they're kind of just like existing and having occasional moments where they bicker. So the show follows Chrishell and she's not very good at her job and she has this completely whack intro where she's like, as a soap opera star I have a lot of down time, so I thought I may as well throw my hat in the ring of the real estate world. And she's not very good at it so they all resent her because she comes in and she's not very good at it—she starts like kind of stealing some of their clients away, sometimes—but all of that seems very manufactured. I don't believe that drama was real to begin with. But, Chrishell—do you know why her name is Chrishell?
Bobby: No.
Louis: Because her mom went into labor at a Shell gas station, and the attendant who helped them out was named Chris.
Bobby: Oh my God.
Louis: Chrishell.
Jaya: This is the only way babies should be named. This is—and anything—any other tradition is utter garbage.
Louis: It's about twittering—
Bobby: Where—where—
Louis: That's like, wherever you can—like, where were you conceived? Where were you born? And like, who helped? And then that's your name—
Bobby: And hers would be the only one that remotely sounds like a real name—
Louis: . . . so-and-so-and-so's name. Yeah. Absolutely.
Bobby: Like, what if she had been—
Jaya: Barry Exxon.
Bobby: Chris Chevron. Chris Exxon.
Louis: I think those are actually great names.
Jaya: Barry Exxon Mobil.
Louis: But, I was—I actually—I love that she's a soap star because there is this tradition in reality T.V. of like casting from soaps on like reality, like, dramas that are supposed to be real and like it's become more and more of a thing and I think a lot of that is because the farther we go into the reality world, the more everyone knows how this works and it's harder to find genuine natural people who want to be on these shows and make an ass of themselves. And, so, you know, Beverly Hills Housewives is, like, pretty much all actors now. I mean it's largely people who have an acting background or is still acting. Like Lisa Rinna or Denise Richards—these are just actors. Or Eileen Davidson. These are soap stars who, like, found their way into Housewives. But I was telling Bobby, when we were texting about Selling Sunset and then he reminded me to save it for the pod, you have, like, also on Vanderpump Rules, they cast someone for one season who was like a soap star, Vail, and they brought her on just to kind of be like we need some help, like, do something. Like, you're an actor, do something. And Chrishell being a soap star is like so perfect because she was clearly hired to kind of perform this role of like a—the ingenue real estate agent.
Bobby: Who's learning as she goes and it's—she's getting better at it; she's making her sales—but I find what's interesting is that they throw her into this and everyone else is doing all the work so the central drama of the season I would say is that Mary is dating Romain and he's younger and Mary has a lot of money. And, so, maybe in the third episode of the season—there's only eight—Divina is talking with Chrishell privately and says—they're talking about their relationship, Mary and Romain's relationship—and Chrishell is like, "does Romain work?" Like, does Romain pay—she's basically being like—
Jaya: Is he a kept man—
Bobby: . . .is he paying his own way?
Louis: But, but in her defense—
Bobby: Or is she paying for everything?
Louis: In her defense—and this is the defense she uses—everyone is kind of talking around this and being like—
Bobby: Everyone is, yes.
Louis: . . . I don't—everyone's like, "oh, I don't know. They're moving so fast." Like, Mary was just crying about him—
Bobby: Because they'd just gotten engaged.
Jaya: Oh, okay.
Louis: And now he's proposing, now they're getting married. Like, I don't trust this, and, so, Chrishell is like, I don't really get it, is—
Bobby: It's very earnest.
Louis: . . . yeah, she's like, is he likes taking her money—like, what's the story here.
Jaya: What's the deal?
Bobby: Divina isn't shocked that Chrishell asked this question.
Louis: No, not at all.
Jaya: Right.
Bobby: But it becomes this central conflict for the rest of the thing where Davina decides to start shit, where she's like, "Chrishell brought up Romain with me and thinks it's weird—wants to know if you had a pre-nup" and so Mary's like, "you're talking about me behind my back?" Which is like the lowest level drama. Everyone talks about everyone behind their backs.
Louis: And then Mary is like—
Jaya: Yeah, I mean, exactly.
Louis: . . . Mary doesn't care.
Bobby: No, Mary doesn't care.
Louis: Like, Chrishell explained herself, Mary doesn't care and then Christine, who is like trying so hard to be the stopee.
Bobby: It's seems like Regina George.
[overlapping/unintelligible 0:31:05.0]
Louis: Because she wants to be Stassi Schroeder so bad she even talks about Adderall, I'm like, you are desperate to be Stassi and she just starts—she's the only one who actually has a true reality show, like, you're—
Bobby: She's a look, too.
Louis: Yeah, she has a look and she's kind of going off on Chrishell, like, you're talking about my best friend because apparently she and Mary are best friends but it's kind of—changes episode to episode.
Bobby: And she's like, "you're my sister," I couldn't be in this role without you—shots, tequila, lemon drops.
Louis: They're all a little bit older than you'd think which I love. That's my other thing about Vanderpump Rules that I love is that they're not in their 20s, they're all in their mid to late 30s.
Jaya: This is the thing that I find hilarious about Vanderpump is that, yeah, they're like 38. I mean, it's just like, really?
Louis: Right. And still—some of them are—
Bobby: You hate any of this?
Louis: Stassi just turned 30 so we're, like—
Jaya: Yeah, no, that's fine.
Louis: But Jax is like fully 60 years old. And, you know, I mean he says he's 40 but who believe what Jax says? But I think that's so fascinating because I do think that, like, high school behavior absolutely continues—
Jaya: Oh, yeah, it totally does.
Louis: . . . past high school and past your 20s but I also think it's funny to watch people in their 30s trying very hard to fight for T.V. and everyone on the show is basically doing that except Chrishell and Maya. Maya has no idea why she's there. Maya is this is Israeli woman who has this really thick accent so sometimes there's a language barrier. It does that really annoying thing that shows do sometimes where, it's—
Jaya: Only subtitles, sometimes.
Louis: . . . subtitles. Only subtitles sometimes and it's like, I understood her. This is rude. You don't need to give Maya subtitles all the time, she's speaking English.
Bobby: But Maya is sort of hovering over the weird drama that's being started by Christina and Davina and Mary—even though Mary is only sort of partly involved—and Chrishell's responses to the drama are so funny and sort of, like, they remind me of how I would react if I were in a show like this—where it's like, suddenly people are mad at me for talking behind your back? Like, why are you screaming at me over Rosé in a restaurant in public?
Jaya: Right.
Bobby: Because Chrishell is always sort of like, completely bewildered by people being mad at her.
Jaya: Right.
Bobby: And it's really—I don't watch that much Bravo so I'm not sure if this is something common among Bravo shows—but, do you usually have that character who's sort of a stand-in for us?
Jaya: There's that, and I feel like there's a lot to the talking behind someone's back that I've noticed in a lot of these shows—that it started as, oh, legit maybe shit talking somebody—and now it's just like having a conversation about someone you have in common when they are not there. Which is like there's a difference between those two.
Louis: Right.
Bobby: Yeah.
Louis: I do think it's funny that a lot of times it gets framed as concern when it's Lisa Rinna saying she is close to death, about Kim Richards and, like, I'm just concerned about her sobriety. But, I think that, on this show, Selling Sunset, it's so clearly a non-issue, but they needed something to talk about because no one cares about real estate, so, like, I mean, truly—I guess I kind of care, but, I don't know, it's not like House Hunters where I can just kind of put it on and enjoy looking at houses and watch couples kind of hate each other.
Jaya: Oh my God.
Louis: It really goes deep on these giant houses that none of us will ever be able to afford and I'm like, eh, I didn't want—I did take a couple notes that I wanted to mention.
Bobby: Okay.
Louis: I hope we can clear something up.
Bobby: Please.
Louis: There's this moment when my SS repeatedly—the silent of the lambs—
Bobby: The silent of the lamb.
Louis: I still don't understand why she's saying that.
Bobby: I think she says it because it's like an awkward silence in the room. Because that's—
Jaya: And that's what she thinks that it—
Bobby: It's this extended moment when all the women are like, at their computers like whatever, and it's silent and then suddenly Maya breaks in and just goes, the silent of the lamb. [voice: The silent of the lamb—laughter. What? The silent of the lamb] and then that's it.
Jaya: I'm going to do this from now on.
Louis: It's one of those—but I love that because it's that's the kind of real awkwardness that I want from a reality show when they just have no idea what is going on and also, it's part of this—there's a very soothing monotony to this show. I like when nothing happens.
Bobby: It's just a lot of talking.
Louis: It's just like—it's not—there's—I don't like—I mean the drama is whatever, it's fun I guess—but, like, I kind of like when they're just sitting around trying to be vaguely interesting mostly just chit-chatting.
Bobby: Hm-hmm. [affirmative] I think we're done talking about Selling Sunset, but that was great.
Louis: I think we're done, but I appreciate it.
Bobby: Do you recommend it to people, generally?
Louis: I have to know a person to know if they would like it or not. It's not what you're going to get watching a Housewives show and it's, like, for people who enjoy the white noise of certain reality T.V. and it's very much a white noise show for me.
Bobby: Me too. And I was on the computer during it, I cleared it in an afternoon. A lot of listening.
Louis: But, I did enjoy it. It's just not deeply compelling drama. It's nothing.
Bobby: Perfect for an afternoon.
Louis: Yes.
Bobby: Before we end, I just want to play one call because we do have a call-in line. You can call in and tell me what you're obsessed with. It's 754-CALL-BOB. Yes, that's the phone number: 754-CALL-BOB. We got a good call about the OA, I'm just going to play it now and we can talk about it briefly afterwards.
Caller: Hey, Bobby. I think we need to talk more about the OA. I'm really glad that you brought it up, briefly, in the last episode. But I feel like everybody loved the first season so much and nobody's talking about the second season and they need to be. Everybody's all focused on the stupid Mueller Report coming out and the stupid EU banning memes and the Brexit situation. And I really think that the second season of the OA ends with the 10 most audacious minutes of television ever presented and I think we need to really freak out a little bit more. We need to focus up and, ah, like, I can picture an AOC rant on the house floor about how over-the-top the last 10 minutes of the OA were and, like, how nobody could have seen that coming and how they kind of pulled it off. And I just, I need more people to be talking about the OA so if you could bring it up again next week, that would really come deeply appreciated by me. Thank you very much.
Bobby: So, Jaya and Louis have not watched the OA. I haven't watched—
Louis: We're totally useless here.
Jaya: Yeah.
Bobby: I haven't watched the final episode because I'm sort of saving it. I told Jaya this earlier, but just to show you where the OA kind of goes—the second season is pretty different from the first just because it gets even more off the rails and it becomes more of a mystery and has more, like she says, just these audacious moments. But there is a seen where you kind of think you know what's going to happen to Brit Marling. This is a spoiler alert, it's fine, it won't really do anything—
Jaya: Yeah, no I have no idea.
Louis: I'll forget.
Bobby: . . . because I really don't know how it ends. You won't forget this Louis. There's a moment where a curtain opens on Brit Marling and you're, like, why is she being strapped to a chair by these kind of men in BBSM gear, what's going on? And then she—the curtains open and she doesn't know what's happening and there's an audience in front of her and then the lights turn on. And, not only is there an audience in front of her, there's a giant tank of water behind her and inside is an enormous octopus.
Louis: Oh, I did hear about the octopus.
Bobby: And the octopus grabs onto her wrists and then connects it little, you know, suction cups, and then begins communicating with her, telepathically.
Louis: Right, yeah.
Bobby: This doesn't explain anything about the show.
Jaya: No, yeah, no—you told me this. I have—
Louis: I have no—I have no—
Jaya: . . . no idea who any of these people are.
Louis: This doesn't explain—
Jaya: Or like, why . . . yeah.
Bobby: It's unlike Sabrina in that it's incredibly cinematic—an episode ends and it just sort of, like, you got to keep going and it feels like one very long movie but the movie is very gorgeous and strange and it's a little—it's silly but it's done so earnestly and it's done so—it's made so well and it has this very singular vision. You respect it more than you get kind of freaked out by it.
Jaya: Yeah, it's funny and I think I was saying to you at one point is that the OA is one of those shows where everyone I know who's watched it either is like this caller and is AOC needs to be talking about this on the House floor that's how important it is.
Bobby: I agree.
Jaya: Yeah—Green New Deal and octopus god.
Bobby: The OA, yes.
Jaya: And then everyone else I see is just, like, I hate this show.
Bobby: Oh, yeah.
Jaya: And it is one of the most divisive things I have heard of recently.
Bobby: But, with that, we're going to end. It's time to end this. So, thank you Jaya and Louis for coming. We've talked so much about these shows. Thank you so much for coming. We will be here in two weeks. You can call 754-CALL-BOB, with your own obsessions. We'll play them at the end of the next episode. Until then, see you later.
Louis: Bye.
Jaya: Bye.
[AUDIO END]